by ersatz_cats
At long last, it is finally time to talk about the fifth day of the defamation trial between disgraced gaming cheater Billy Mitchell and absolute legend Karl Jobst. Karl Jobst was cross-examined by Billy’s attorney for most of the day on Friday – a challenge he handled excellently, if I may say so. Meanwhile, Billy’s barrister made what turned out to be an inadvertent disclosure. And, aside from myself and Karl and maybe his lawyers, no one who was at court that day has any idea what they saw. But it was big! And it relates to a confidential story, which I have now been given permission to discuss.
I apologize for how long these last installments have taken. My chicken-scratch handwriting got sloppier as the week went on, which meant I’ve had to spend more time deciphering what the hell I wrote. Before we get to the new stuff, I noticed that some people missed my update to “Day 4”, which was added to the existing post following the bit on Steve Grunberger. Anyway, if you haven’t checked out the previous entries in this saga, including the complete “Day 4”, please do so:
https://perfectpacman.com/2024/09/15/karl-day-0/
https://perfectpacman.com/2024/09/16/karl-day-1/
https://perfectpacman.com/2024/09/17/karl-day-2/
https://perfectpacman.com/2024/09/18/karl-day-3/
https://perfectpacman.com/2024/09/19/karl-day-3-4/
https://perfectpacman.com/2024/09/20/karl-day-4/
And all my regular caveats on these updates: Unlike my usual writing, this’ll be quick and raw. I am NOT going to reintroduce stuff from my previous “Karl vs Billy” posts, linked above, so I will assume you’ve read them. As a reminder though, “BB” refers to “Billy’s barrister”, and “KB” refers to “Karl’s barrister”. I’m normally very careful with quotes to make sure they’re accurate, but I can usually relisten to media to confirm. Since these are all one-and-done, there’ll be plenty of times where I capture what I think is the essence of what was said. “Anything in regular quotes should be considered word-for-word.” [“Anything with brackets means ‘Not word-for-word, but conveys the meaning of what was said.”] (And even then, I’m human and can make mistakes.) Also, I’m just reporting what was said, without additional fact-checking; nothing should necessarily be taken as fact just because someone said it here.
WAS THERE PROOF OF A FINANCIAL SETTLEMENT BETWEEN BILLY AND APOLLO?
Before we get into Friday’s events, however, I want to call back to something I glossed over in my “Day 0” post. I raised the question of why on Earth Karl would make the shocking claim that there was a financial settlement between Apollo Legend and Billy Mitchell if it was not true. And I realized, it was just too long a sidebar for something I didn’t believe was actually going to be argued in court. (It involved messages from others who aren’t appearing to testify, making their inclusion in a legal proceeding dubious.) But I did say I would circle back if that evidence became relevant, and as of Friday it has – not to the proceedings themselves, but to this here court of public opinion. (No, you don’t have to call me “Your honor”, but I won’t stop you if you do.)
As a reminder, in my “Day 4” write-up, it was noted that Karl’s attorneys are not even making the argument of “Karl believed the claim to be true at the time it was made”; this is why the following material is not being included. However, the interesting thing about defamation law is – and to my knowledge, this is true basically everywhere you go – if you can demonstrate sufficient basis for making the claims you did, and that you took reasonable steps to avoid inaccuracies and to minimize damage from those errors, then your alleged “defamation” is not actionable. You are allowed to make the occasional mistake, especially when reporting on public figures; if not, nobody could report on anything. Or, as I once put it:
[If] Billy Mitchell said, with a sense of sincerity, “Yes, I fucked a goat while dressed up like Raggedy Andy,” and if I then subsequently reported that Billy Mitchell fucked a goat while dressed up like Raggedy Andy, I would not liable for defamation, even if the claim ultimately turned out to be false.
Over time, I had discovered the U.S.S. Mitchell to be one leaky ship. Through a third party, I had heard various claims from a confidential source in the Billy camp, who I will refer to as “Sam”. (I would prefer to identify people openly and be transparent with all evidence, but sometimes it is not my privilege to do so.) “Sam” had claimed in late 2019 that Guinness had agreed to reinstate Billy Mitchell’s fraudulent Donkey Kong scores. This seemed preposterous at the time, and yet it did come true the following summer. (More recent evidence has indicated that Billy knew of this reinstatement around the time of Sam’s claim.) “Sam” had also claimed in July 2020 that Apollo Legend had reached out to Billy seeking a settlement. Once again, this felt like an outlandish claim, given Apollo’s previous defiant declaration on YouTube:
I will not give him a single penny. I will not delete a single video.
This was before the settlement was announced in late August. Once again, Sam’s predictions were proven correct.
Before I get to the named individuals, let me say this: Please do not harass any of these people. Some of these individuals haven’t been involved in this stuff for years now. It’s necessary for me, in this moment, to recap this information that’s already in the public sphere. But that’s not an invitation to seek them out or ask them further questions about this. Believe me, those questions have already been asked by others.
The foreshadowing of Apollo’s settlement was bolstered by a public declaration from Casey Ross, a playwright who collaborated with Billy on promotional theater work. In July 2020, she boasted in a public YouTube comment that Apollo had reached out to Billy, attempting to settle the lawsuit.
That screencap was posted to Twitter by another member of Billy’s inner circle, a YouTuber who goes by the Concert Cruizer, which seemed to add further verification:
When I went to follow this YouTube comment to its source, I found that it had been edited to remove any reference to a settlement with Apollo:
At the time, it was unclear whether this sneaky edit was due to the claim being incorrect. However, as we now know, there was indeed a settlement, which means Casey most likely edited her comment because it included information that was supposed to remain private. But hey, thank you to Concert Cruizer for helping us catch the pre-edit version.
Notably, these predictions did not specify a financial payment as part of that settlement. It simply reinforces that leaks from Billy’s camp were springing up everywhere. But this is where we turn to the confidential source “Sam” again. Around the same time Sam claimed Apollo and Billy were reaching a settlement, they claimed there was a significant financial element to the finalized agreement – in other words, that Apollo had agreed to pay Billy possibly thousands of dollars. (Sam declined to name an exact amount.) Again, this was before any settlement was even announced.
To me, this claim, from an inside source who had already demonstrated accurate knowledge of their behind-the-scenes manifestations, was already basis for believing the claim of a monetary payment was true. However, the trail had a few other interesting turns as well. On July 30th, still weeks before the settlement was announced, there were a couple very specific (and later deleted) claims on Reddit from a “mio456”, which at the time of this Twin Galaxies wall post was accessible by a removeddit.com link:
I actually replied to the first of those blue-highlighted comments, pointing out that there was still no public evidence of a settlement, and that Apollo’s videos on Billy were still visible – something which certainly would have changed as a result of a settlement. (And it turns out, it did!) Despite my skepticism, as with the other remarks, this person’s reference to a settlement was proven true.
Oh, and there was the “rickeybm” remark noted in “Day 4”, which I actually forgot to include when I wrote the TG post:
This one was posted immediately following news of the settlement, so it wouldn’t qualify as a prediction of that. But I couldn’t help but notice the username “rickeybm”. Perhaps it was a reference to “Billy Mitchell” and his “Rickey’s Hot Sauce” business? That account was later deleted, and I’m unaware of any online archiving of that comment, however a reply from Reddit user BP_Ray, quoting “He paid $50k to Billy”, remains visible.
Obviously, Reddit comments alone are not enough to go on. But given mio456’s apparent clairvoyance of a settlement, and paired with all the other leaks from U.S.S. Mitchell, and the fact that previous inside predictions about Guinness had basically all come to fruition, this felt at the time like a very substantial basis to conclude that the Billy/Apollo settlement did include a monetary payment. Such terms would likely be restricted under a confidentiality clause, however the folks getting their updates from Billy all seemed to be on the same page. (And of course, it felt highly unlikely that Billy would sue Apollo, hire a lawyer to take the case, and then allow Apollo to walk away without a dime in compensation.)
I wrote that Twin Galaxies post following Billy Mitchell’s response video, which was the first time we in the public heard him claim there was no financial settlement. In other words, up until that point, we’d accumulated all this evidence pointing to a financial settlement, with absolutely nothing saying otherwise. As I concluded in my TG post, Billy’s denial implied one of three possible conclusions:
1) There was indeed a significant financial settlement between Benjamin and Billy, and Billy is lying;
2) There was indeed a significant financial settlement between Benjamin and Billy, and Billy is using deceptive language to avoid technically telling a lie (such as saying no money was “paid” when money was still owed at the time of Benjamin’s death);
3) There was a concerted effort by Billy and/or those close to him to spread false information that there was a financial settlement when there was not.
To be clear, Billy Mitchell is an unflinching liar. At the time of that writing, I still considered possibilities 1 or 2 to be the most likely. However, the third option was intriguing. Was Billy Mitchell going around spreading false bravado of how badly he had humiliated Apollo? Or even worse, was he deliberately planting misinformation, hoping honest journalists like myself might take the bait and repeat these reports in a way his lawyers could find actionable? The problem of course is that such a maneuver is ultimately self-defeating. Again, it’s not defamation if you have basis for sincerely believing the information you report to be true. However, that could also be the sort of nuance that would require a trial to settle, which would allow Billy to sue a critical journalist and string along the process until the defendant has to give up.
As wild as that third scenario seemed, given the later indications that no financial settlement existed, it now appears as though the fake story really was being planted. And while random Redditors may or may not be sincere, I do not believe for one second that Casey Ross, or Concert Cruizer, or anyone else from Billy’s camp who relayed early reports of a settlement made that story up themselves. In other words, based on the information I’ve provided, there’s no doubt in my mind that (prior to Apollo’s suicide) Billy wanted people to believe in the existence of financial compensation from Apollo – even though Billy is now willing to shed crocodile tears to an Australian court and claim to be the aggrieved party when journalists repeat his dumbass claims.
Prior to Billy’s denial, I ended up passing on the evidence I had to two YouTubers who had reached out to me with inquiries, one of whom was Karl. I offered them all the proof I had at the time, and emphasized to them that I was not basing my belief on any other secret or undisclosed evidence. In other words, they were free to draw whatever conclusion they wanted from the same material. But everyone who saw it agreed: It sure as hell looked like Apollo’s settlement with Billy included a significant financial payment to Billy.
If I could indulge in some personal commentary for a moment, I feel bad whenever I report something that’s untrue, and I feel even worse when I compel others to follow suit. (And especially when legal action follows suit, sweet tittyfucking Christ.) However, it’s hard to feel particularly bad for my own actions in an incident such as this, when the error appears to be a direct result of a concerted attempt to restrict information, to plant a fake story to fill that information vacuum, and to spread enough substantiation to give that fake story a sense of legitimacy. Billy has told many lies over a long career of dishonesty, including that he got the first perfect score on Pac-Man, or that he was crowned “Video Game Player of the Century” by Masaya Nakamura in Japan. I don’t hold anything against people who reported those claims as fact, given that most of them had reason to believe those things were true. And while this was certainly an error, and all errors require reevaluation, I don’t especially beat myself up for this one. To put it another way, I know I’m not the bad guy here, and I know better than to allow insincere bullies like Billy Mitchell to cast me as the offender.
At any rate, this story’s about to get even wilder. But before we get to that, let’s start up with Friday’s events.
THANK GOD IT’S FRIDAY
Having cut it close with my daily update, I rushed out the door with little time to spare, having eaten only some spare leftovers for breakfast – excuse me, I mean “brekky”. First, I had to stop by the corner store, sort of a mini version of “Woolworths” (a grocery store), just to see if they had a spare pen for sale. The only one they had for sale was one of those four-color pens where you click down the tab for each color. I’m not quite fond of those, but in this case it would have to do. From there, I hurried and arrived at the courthouse at 8:55. BB saw my Mariners jersey, and remarked that we fell last night to the Yankees, reminding me that I had forgotten to check on them for days. (Some fan I am!) When I arrived, Karl was already sitting in the witness box, now wearing a white shirt with black suit jacket. Meanwhile, Billy was back to his West Point tie. I guess he really did only bring two ties this trip. Whereas Billy had sat in the far left corner most of the time, on Friday Junior occupied that seat, with Billy sitting to his immediate right. My remaining two pens still seemed to have life in them, and so when my sketch artist friend returned for Friday and asked to borrow a pen, I loaned it to him. I hoped I wouldn’t need it anyway.
BB continued Karl’s cross-examination by showing his YouTube “About” page. BB asked Karl to confirm he had posted a total of 161 videos, to which Karl said that was not correct. Karl noted that he had previously uploaded more videos of his speedrun attempts, which he either set to unlisted or private when he started making videos professionally. When asked how many videos he’s made as a professional, Karl confirmed that it was around 161.
BB then asked Karl to be shown an exhibit from the trial bundle. On our screens, we saw the thumbnail from the contested video, reading “THEY’RE SUING EVERYONE!” However, it was soon made clear that the exhibit as presented to Karl included twenty pages of twenty different Billy-related thumbnails. Karl was asked if these were all the videos he made about Billy, to which Karl admitted he didn’t know if the list was exhaustive.
KB lodged an objection for relevance, similar to the objections noted earlier. As KB noted, if this line of questioning goes to aggravated circumstances, then the particulars relate to only one such video, which would be the one noted in the pleadings. Judge noted that the plaintiff has the right to test whether Karl’s retraction video was designed to draw people’s attention. Indeed, BB indicated their attempt to establish that the Karl intended for the retraction to be effectively unseen. However, Judge also said that while the notion that Karl could have buried this retraction in some other video could be relevant, that would not make the other videos relevant, nor would any of this demonstrate whether that was a normal practice. BB said there has already been other discussion of Karl’s other videos about Mitchell, to which Judge said the fact that no objection was lodged doesn’t make those videos admissible.
Returning to questioning, BB asked Karl why he posts such a significant portion of his videos dedicated to Billy. Karl notes that, for starters, Billy’s litigation against other people is newsworthy, and that Billy has initiated so much litigation against other gamers. Karl added that the fact that these defendants are gamers ties into his channel’s focus on video games and video game world record holders.
BB asked if the real reason Karl does videos about Billy is because those videos get a high number of views.
Karl paused for a moment, then said [“No, all my videos get a high number of views.”]
KB then objected that the word “good” here is subjective. BB then tries to reframe the question, asking Karl if those videos provide a “good” stream of revenue, to which the Judge noted that runs against the same objection. BB then tried asking how much more money Karl makes from Billy-related videos compared to others, drawing another objection from KB that plaintiff’s counsel can ask about the contested video, but can’t refer to the unpleaded videos. BB protests that he’s not required to plead “in chapter and verse” every item he intends to use in cross-examination. Judge ultimately agreed that the question of whether Karl published these Billy videos to increase traffic to his channel makes those videos relevant toward that question. Judge allowed that questioning to proceed, noting that it’s a different point than was discussed yesterday.
I noticed that, this morning, Karl’s solicitor Sam Barber was occupying the inside right corner seat Karl had been sitting in throughout the week, no doubt keeping it warm for his client should cross-examination conclude that day. Also, a group of ladies had arrived to watch Karl testify that morning. I’m sure it’s a coincidence.
BB resumed by asking Karl if he knew how much he’s earned from these Billy-related videos. Karl said he has access to that information, but does not know it at this time. BB asked Karl why he didn’t disclose the analytics for these videos. Karl pointed out that he did for the “Conmen” video, but BB asked why Karl didn’t do the same for the others, asking if there’s no reason he wouldn’t have. Judge then pointed out that the others are not directly relevant, that plaintiff could have subpoenaed them or called for them.
BB showed an analytics page they did have, asking Karl to identify the views and unique views. Karl noted that “unique views” are a little more complex, and that he doesn’t fully understand what that implies.
BB then showed another analytics page, which identifies Karl revenue from that one video as north of $7500, though Karl noted that this was from all edits of the video combined. When asked to compare the revenue from this video to others, Karl noted that these days, he tends to earn less per thousand views than he did when that video was released. Karl added [“That’s YouTube’s business, they decide how many ads they play, and how much you get paid.”] BB asks Karl to explain this apparent difference with how much he earns now, but Karl says it’s difficult to explain, because every video’s different. Karl notes that, among his 160 total videos, on average he generally earns less these days.
BB also recalled that Karl makes money from endorsements, and that the video in question had one such endorsement. Karl recalled that the sponsor for that video was Skillshare, but did not recall the exact amount he earned. BB asked Karl if he retains records of how much he received. There was a long silence before Karl said he doesn’t know for certain, but assumes he would have it. BB asked why Karl chose not to provide that document, to which Karl said he didn’t think he was required to.
BB asked Karl if he was aware that plaintiff is contending that he received money for that video, citing it as an “issue” in these proceedings. Karl asked what exactly BB means by “issue”.
(In court, there’s a process called discovery, wherein both parties have to provide relevant evidence to the other side, though in many cases these items have to be specifically requested.)
KB then objected, saying that the pleading refers to advertisements played before, during, and after the video, positing that these refer to the YouTube ads and not the sponsorship sports. However, Judge did not see a distinction between those ads and the sponsorship for which Karl was paid to insert an endorsement, noting that the amount of money Karl received from that would seem directly relevant.
BB asked Karl if he was aware that BB’s client raised the issue of sponsorship in his pleading. Karl said he was. BB asked if Karl was aware he didn’t provide the necessary documentation. Karl replied that he did send the YouTube analytics, to which BB noted Karl’s earlier testimony that sponsorship money is completely independent of YouTube. BB then referred back to Karl’s total of over $7500, confirming that this total was just what YouTube paid Karl and does not include the sponsor.
BB asked if Karl didn’t bother checking if he had documentation of this sponsorship. Karl said “No”.
BB emphasized that Karl failed to do this, even though he knew this was an issue for this proceeding.
Karl responded that he wasn’t aware he had to provide it, adding [“I’m not a lawyer, I don’t know what my requirements are.”]
BB kept pressing this point, citing a filing by Karl’s solicitor which included a statement on full disclosure. Karl confirmed he received he received that statement, but said he regardless didn’t know he was supposed to supply this document.
BB asked Karl if the real reason he didn’t disclose that document was because he didn’t want Billy to see that information. Karl said that was not correct, that he would have been happy to provide it.
BB then turned to an episode of “The Official Podcast”, episode 241, dated 15th July 2021, where Karl discussed the case. The relevant portion started around a minute into the video, with one of the hosts asking Karl:
So what is this story? For anybody who doesn’t know, can you give us a little backstory on why you found yourself in the middle of a lawsuit by a fucking clown.
I could hear Billy sigh when he heard the host call him a “fucking clown”.
From BB’s perspective, it seemed the purpose of this exhibit was to introduce the following quote from Karl:
Billy Mitchell is like a content-creating machine.
BB asked if this meant Billy generates a significant amount of content that’s beneficial to Karl’s channel. Karl said, as a reporter who covers news, that is correct.
This led to an exchange where BB kept trying to assert that content about Billy generates a “high number” of views. And each time, Karl would counter that “high number” is always relative, prefacing that at one point with [“I really don’t mean to be difficult, but…”] Eventually, BB asked Karl if he would consider hundreds of thousands of views to be high, to which Karl said [“I’d consider that to be average.”] Karl added that he always gets hundreds of thousands of views on videos, and that a high number for him would be in the millions, with his most-watched video ever having 18 million views.
BB then shows Karl some of his chat posts, including one that referred to Billy’s lawsuit as a “clown show” and expressing his desire to win. When asked if Karl was referring to this trial, Karl said he would assume so, because he can’t win any other lawsuit. Regarding another message, BB asked if Karl intended to “get a lot of content” out of these proceedings. Of that message, Karl noted his use of the word “trials”, saying he’s not sure at this point whether he was referring to this proceeding or one of the many others Billy had initiated.
BB asked what Karl meant when, in one of these posts, he said “Content feeds my family”. Karl explained “Content creation is my job. It’s how I pay my mortgage. It’s how I feed my family.” When asked, Karl indicated that that was inclusive of content generated as part of these proceedings. Going back to the message, Judge asked to clarify whether the displayed date indicated the 9th of August or the 8th of September. Karl said he did not know, it depends on who screencapped the message.
BB had his assistant display a new image on the screen. It was a meme, showing Billy Mitchell pointing a handgun at the viewer. It got a chuckle from the audience. BB quickly realized he didn’t mean to display that, and had it removed with no related questions. (No, this was not the inadvertent disclosure I foreshadowed.)
Up next, BB played a portion from a video interview with Karl Jobst by Camelot331, titled “Billy Mitchell is coming for me”. First, he played a portion from 1:20:
I made a video saying that Guinness sucks, and, you know, as part of that, right at the end of that, I had like a little bit of Billy Mitchell, and I’m like, you know, “And they suck because they put Billy Mitchell’s world records back up to Guinness even though they’re obviously fake.” And he sent me your version of a cease and desist or whatever, which is like “I’m gonna sue you unless you retract that.” And that was like, just me calling him out just at the end of a video. So he already knew who I was in 2020. Then I made a full video about him, and then I decided to make heaps of videos about him, he wasn’t happy with that. And then… at the end of 2021, he filed an official lawsuit, which is still ongoing.
Then, BB had the clerk jump forward to 3:00:
When I first got sued, I was getting estimates like, you know, that the entire lawsuit’s gonna cost like 200 grand. And that’s… I’m like, cool, 200 grand, it sucks, but I had some help, and I can deal with that. Even if I didn’t have help, I could probably survive that. Then, like, you know… the costs like tripled, and it got to a point where the… the law firm was like “Dude, it’s gonna cost another 200 grand.” This was like recently. This was like a month ago. And I’m like “What the fuck? I’ve almost spent 400 grand and now it’s gonna be another 200 grand, that’s insane.” So I had a… I had a bit of a… temper tantrum, and said “This is ridiculous”, and then I worked out a deal with my law firm. I was basically like, you know, “This is way too much, I’m gonna have to switch and do something cheaper”, and they’re like “No no no no no. We’ll… We’ll do you a deal.” So I’ve… I’ve been stressed out man, because like, you know, it’s not like… That’s a lot of fucking money. And… you know, that’s why I’m making so many Billy Mitchell videos. And I’m like… I see people on my channel, they’re like, you know “Oh, I wish… I remember when Karl used to talk about speedrunning,” and it’s kinda… “Why are you talking about Billy Mitchell so much?” I have to earn so much money to afford the lawsuit that my YouTube channel’s no longer about “Oh, what I do make videos about that I like?” No, it’s like, dude, how do I make videos that I just survive, and can pay for this lawsuit? That’s pretty much all I’m thinking about.
BB asked Karl if what he said was accurate. Karl said “Yes”. BB asked if this meant he was producing more videos on Billy for more income. Karl indicated that what he said was, he needed to survive, and he can’t produce many other videos when he’s spending so much of his time responding to this plaintiff. Therefore, unfortunately, he has to make videos on this subject.
BB continued pressing Karl on the topic of videos generated from these proceedings. Karl said he knew of Billy in late 2017, and indeed since King of Kong before that, but it was in 2017 that he heard more about the dispute over Billy’s scores at Twin Galaxies. Karl mentioned the TG dispute began in late 2017, to which BB attempted to correct him and say it started in February 2018. Karl then clarified that the allegations against Billy’s scores did indeed start in late 2017, and that in 2018 new allegations arose relating to MAME. The MAME evidence was more concrete, whereas the previous allegations were circumstantial. Karl added that those allegations were not Twin Galaxies statements, and that he was not aware of any Twin Galaxies statements at that time. Karl explained that these allegations were compiled in a dispute thread, which anyone could post to.
BB asked about Karl to confirm his first video about Billy focused on Guinness World Records, with the Billy segment tacked onto the end. BB then showed Karl the Guinness reinstatement announcement. Karl recalled seeing it at the time, and that he made his Guinness video after the matter at hand, though he doesn’t recall the exact date.
BB then asked, shouldn’t the Twin Galaxies dispute in 2018 have fallen under the regular subject matter of his videos? Karl noted that he did not have regular subject matter at the time, since he did not begin publishing videos of the current fashion until the end of 2018. BB asked Karl when he started covering speedruns, Guinness world records, and cheating in video games. At first, Karl recalled his current upload style beginning in 2020, before correcting himself, that it may have begun with a video on Todd Rogers in late 2019. BB asked Karl to confirm that this means he covered cheating in video games in 2019, to which Karl said “Yes”.
BB notes that Karl didn’t publish videos about Billy cheating until after June 2020. BB then asked if the real reason Karl didn’t cover the allegations at that time because he didn’t believe them to be true.
BB then postured [“Isn’t there a more reasonable explanation?”]
Karl explained that, at the time, the Billy Mitchell story was saturated, with hundreds of videos. Thus, there was no need for him to make another video on Billy being a cheater.
BB asked Karl how many videos he’s done which concern the Twin Galaxies allegations. Karl flips through the thumbnails in front of him, one by one. After several seconds, Karl admits he lost count. Karl said he’s not sure how many of those videos mention the TG allegations, but most relate to Billy’s litigation.
BB asks if Karl is familiar with these videos. Karl said he is familiar with the subject matter, yes, but doesn’t recall the video contents word for word.
BB then alleges that, in each of these videos, Karl discusses the TG dispute. Karl disputes this, saying most are about Billy’s lawsuits, and not really about his cheating.
So what exactly is Billy’s barrister talking about here?
BB then recites portions of the introduction from the contested video. (Sadly, BB didn’t include “Hello you absolute legends”.) Specifically, he points to where Karl referred to Billy’s “fake scores being removed” and that Billy was “exposed as cheating”. BB then asks Karl if he made similar statements about Billy in his other videos. Karl confirms he does indeed refer to Billy as a cheater in other videos.
Not that it’s important, but KB lodged an objection that BB read out only a portion of the quote and not the entirety, saying it would be more proper to cite the full quote before asking about certain elements. Judge denied the objection, saying BB is simply asking about specific portions and reading only those portions, and that there’s nothing wrong with that.
BB asks if Karl refers to Billy as “the disgraced Donkey Kong player” and as a cheater. Karl says he does.
BB cites Karl’s testimony that he didn’t cover Billy’s situation because it would be redundant, before asking why Karl refers to Billy as a cheater in twenty videos, suggesting that it is redundant to always refer to Billy in this way. And so, BB asks, why did Karl consider the story redundant before, and why does he not consider it redundant now.
Karl said the question confused him.
BB rolled back to the beginning. He asked Karl to confirm he did a video about Todd Rogers cheating. He asked Karl to confirm his claim that a video about Billy’s cheating would have been redundant at that time. And he asked Karl to confirm that he’s posted 20 videos, most or all of which refer to Billy as a cheater.
So, BB asks, why is it not redundant now, after so many more videos about Billy have been published, to continue referring to Billy as a cheater, adding [“Would it not have been great material back when you started your channel in 2018?”]
Karl noted that he did not start producing videos until December 2018, adding that he may have mentioned Billy in his Todd Rogers video. BB expresses skepticism, citing Karl’s earlier claim that his first video about Billy was his Guinness video from 2020. Karl states that that was the first of his videos that really dealt with Billy directly.
BB asked why there were no such Billy videos in 2018, at the time of his Todd Rogers video. Judge interjected, saying that Toddzilla video was from 2019. (I wish His Honor actually said “Toddzilla” lol.)
Karl said he was doing very well with speedrun videos at the time, noting that the Todd Rogers video was a once-off anomaly. Karl added [“It was not my intention to create a channel about cheaters.”]
Karl and BB went back and forth a bit on the semantics of the evolution of Karl’s channel. BB tried to frame it as though Karl “started covering” cheaters with the Todd video, whereas Karl disputed that characterization, saying he just made a single video on the topic.
BB suggested that, along those same lines, Karl would have had a good story to tell about Billy. Karl asks for clarification as to whether BB is asking for Karl’s state of mind now or back then, to which BB says he’s asking about Karl’s perspective in 2019. Karl says simply that was not his state of mind at the time.
BB then circles back through the same line of questioning again, leading again to the question of why Karl didn’t do a video on Billy at that time. Karl asks for clarification, [“You’re asking me if I think it would’ve been a good story at that time?”] Karl tried to explain that succeeding on YouTube has less to do with the topics you cover and more to do with how entertaining you make your videos. Karl then reiterated that his channel wasn’t aimed at covering cheaters at that time.
BB asked Karl again to confirm that he had “started” covering cheaters, to which Karl again reiterated that he had made a single video.
For those who don’t know what’s going on here, this practice of grinding a single question into the ground is a standard practice, particularly when cross-examining opposing witnesses. You, as the attorney, want to trip them up and wear them down. You can’t just keep asking literally the same question over and over, lest (at least in the U.S.) you get an “asked and answered” objection. But there are always many ways to ask something. If the witness knows what they’re doing, they’ll give the same answer over and over and over, thirty times if necessary. After all, that answer continues to be the truth. But many people begin to get exasperated, or impatient, or they get sick of sitting there stuck in Groundhog Day, so they begin to stray. They may even feel like they’re treating the questioner as stupid by answering over and over in the same way (even though the questioner knows what they’re doing and is the one putting the witness in that position). At any rate, Karl handled this expertly. Don’t let the opposing attorney weasel in their framing just because they attempt to do it dozens of times.
Ultimately, Karl answered that he had other stories he wished to tell, that his other videos were doing well, and that he can’t cover everything. BB once again asked Karl why he chose not to cover Billy during that time. It was at this point KB stood up and said that his client has already answered that his other videos were doing well. Judge noted that he wasn’t even sure of the relevance of this line of questioning at this point.
As BB indicated he would move on soon, KB remained standing, apologizing for having to interrupt his “friend”. (There seems to be some protocol where the opposing barristers refer to each other as “friend”.) KB then asks when the court could consider pausing Karl’s cross-examination to include some of the American witnesses, whose availability is limited due to the time difference. KB first named David Race, adding that 10am local time would be 8pm for him at home. KB also cited a “Mister White”, before correcting himself to say “Mr. Pireiro”, who could be called at noon, coinciding with 10pm his time. Judge expressed his disdain for the idea of continually interposing witnesses, to which BB agreed it would be better to do such witnesses in a block. Judge noted that they have a break coming up at 11am, which should work perfectly for this purpose.
BB asked Karl to confirm that he didn’t think a video on Billy in late 2019 or early 2020 would have been entertaining. However, Karl did not accept that. Then, finally, BB chose to move on from that topic.
BB then wished to follow up on something from the day before, BB noted that Karl was asked who recognized Donkey Kong records, and that he listed Donkey Kong Forum and Twin Galaxies. BB then asked Karl why he did not list Guinness World Records as well. Once again, the parties ran into questions of what exactly “recognize” means. BB then put it to Karl that Guinness is also an organization that lists scores in Donkey Kong. Karl countered [“They purport to.”] BB asked if Karl was suggesting Guinness does not list these scores. Karl explained Guinness does not adjudicate high scores, they rely on other sites to do so.
BB then shows Karl Guinness’ statement on Billy’s reinstatement there. BB asked if this statement reflected Guinness re-examining and reinstating Billy’s records. Karl said he would accept that that is the words on the page say.
BB noted that, as of when that statement was published in June 2020, Twin Galaxies had not reinstated Billy’s records.
Karl said he hates [“to be a stickler”], but that these score claims from Billy are historical records, not current records. Regardless, BB asked Karl to agree that Guinness were acting independently of Twin Galaxies in re-examining Billy’s scores. Karl said “No, I do not.”
BB noted that Karl seems to personally disagree with Guinness’ decision. Karl said he definitely disagrees with those scores being put back in. BB offered that that’s why Karl doesn’t recognize Guinness as a legitimate adjudicator. Karl said that’s not the sole reason at all, but it does contribute to his opinion.
BB then shows a tweet from Karl, blasting Guinness for this decision. Karl explained that he was indeed upset by that move. BB then quoted Karl from that tweet as saying “Fuck Billy Mitchell”. Karl confirmed those were his words.
BB asked Karl if he reached out to Billy directly to discuss the topic of Billy’s reinstated records. Karl said he did not.
Karl was then asked how many followers he had on Twitter. Karl said he had no idea, but that it’s nowhere near how many he has today. After some further back-and-forth on the exact number, Judge interrupted to say that Karl was effectively being asked to guess, and that they don’t need speculation in the court.
BB asked Karl why he refers to Billy suing people. Karl said “Because Billy Mitchell had a reputation as someone who sues people.”
When asked why Karl was worried about being sued, Karl said [“Because he sues people.”] Karl then added [“I was going to report on his cheating, and he’s sued other people who reported on his cheating.”]
BB then brought up another tweet of Karl’s, where he says that once he becomes rich he’ll buy some Guinness records. Karl explained that Guinness’ business model is that you pay to buy world records, that people basically buy Guinness recognition.
BB then asked about Karl’s follow-up comment, that the record he buys could be “Donkey Kong related”. Karl explained that it was a joke. BB asked [“About what?”] Karl explained that it was a joke about buying a Donkey Kong record. BB asked why this joke was about Donkey Kong in particular. Judge then remarked that Karl was inferring that Mr. Mitchell had paid for Guinness to reinstate his scores. Karl reiterated that it was definitely a joke, but doesn’t recall if his intention with the joke was to suggest Billy paid Guinness, or that he (Karl) could just buy one himself.
BB then showed Karl another tweet, which consisted of the words “Silly Bitchell”. BB read the tweet aloud, and asked if this was a reference to his client. Karl confirmed it was. BB asked Karl why he said that, to which Karl said [“I believe it to be funny.”] When asked why he found it funny, Karl remarked that it’s difficult to explain humor, and that this was a quote from the documentary.
Karl was asked if he was trying to elicit a response from Billy. Karl said “No”. BB asked Karl if he was afraid Billy would sue him over these tweets. Karl said he was not worried that calling him “Silly Bitchell” would result in a lawsuit. BB then asked, in general, was Karl worried that Billy would sue him over these tweets. Karl said, no, not over tweets.
BB said, when Karl posts a video, when he wants people to know it’s about Billy, he includes an image of Billy in the thumbnail. Karl confirmed this was the case, and that each of the 20 thumbnails before him featured Billy. Judge then asked what exactly was meant by “thumbnail”, to which BB explained he’s referring to the main screen shown for the video. Karl confirmed that, in that bundle, each thumbnail shows Billy, but that his original Guinness video did not. Karl then added that he’s mentioned Billy in other videos without putting him in the thumbnail.
BB asked if Karl puts Billy in the thumbnail if he wants people to know the video is about him. Karl said [“Correct.”] KB then objects as to how the thumbnails are being used, relating back to earlier discussions. Judge noted the thumbnails are in evidence, and are being used to show that they include Billy in the image.
BB referred back to the original version of the contested video from 26th of May 2021. Billy quoted Karl from the video’s introduction saying of BB’s client “The man is trying to ruin lives, and I’m now of the opinion that he is legitimately evil.” BB also reminded Karl of his testimony that he had not even met Billy by that point. BB asked Karl if he still believed those words. Karl said he does believe Billy is trying to ruin lives, but that he has matured over the past few years, and wouldn’t use the words “legitimately evil” now.
BB noted that, in the course of the video, Karl also referred to Billy as a “scumbag” and “insane”. When asked if Karl believed those things at the time, Karl replied “Yes”. When asked if Karl still believes them, Karl again replied “Yes”.
BB then shows Karl his declaration from the Twin Galaxies case, which you can read here:
BB then asks Karl to read the following passage aloud:
The story I told in my YouTube video was slightly embellished to make it more interesting to viewers.
BB asked Karl to confirm that this statement referred to the contested video by Karl. However, sitting in the gallery, I immediately recognized that this was in reference to a separate controversy in the TG case regarding the red joystick photos, which happened over a year after the May 2021 video. So when I heard BB’s question, I was juuust about to emphatically shake my head, when I realized that would be a terrible thing to do from the gallery while Karl was on the witness stand, lol. Thankfully, Karl also recognized this discrepancy, and said he doesn’t believe this statement was in reference to the current matter, but rather was about Billy’s later deposition. BB asked Karl if he “slightly embellished” the contested 2021 video. Karl said he was not sure.
BB then asked Karl to read this other passage from his TG declaration:
My YouTube videos often contain hyperbole, sarcasm, parody, and humor to make them interesting to viewers. When talking on facts I generally show evidence within the video. If this evidence isn’t shown, my comments should not be misconstrued as factual.
As an aside, this is a perfect statement for a case where Karl made a claim without showing proof, so I’d say thank you to BB for making sure this was entered onto the record. At any rate, BB asked if the 2020 video also included hyperbole and sarcasm. Karl answered “It may have”.
BB asked if the part where Karl said Billy “ruins lives”, and referred to him as “legitimately evil” and a “scumbag” were hyperbole.
Karl said “No.”
And with that, court adjourned for a short break until 11:15. Out in the lobby, one regular joked “Billy held the door for me, so he must be innocent.”
DAVID VERSUS GOLIATH
Following the break, KB prepared to call David Race to the stand, via Zoom (or whatever service they use). Karl was told that he need not continue to sit in the witness box during David’s testimony, and that as a party to the case, Karl would be offered the same privilege as Billy to remain in the room. However, Karl as Billy eventually had, Karl chose to leave the room during David’s testimony.
David was affirmed as David Wayne Race of Ohio, United States. David looked sharp, wearing a blue shirt and black tie with black suit jacket, filming from a blue corner to match his shirt.
KB asked David about his association with the gaming community. David testified that he’s known for holding world records on various Pac-Man games, including Pac-Man Plus, Junior Pac-Man, Pac-Man Turbo, Miss Pac-Man Turbo, as well as other ’80s games. David has been a video game enthusiast since the ’80s, and has been into competitive gaming from the beginning of 2004 up to the present.
David first heard of Billy Mitchell in 2003 or 2004, when he was looking for the world record on Pac-Man. David noted [“He was declared to be the first person to get a perfect game.”] David finally met Billy in Ottumwa, at an event called the Big Bang in 2010. And in 2013, at an event called GameWarp, David was on a panel along with Billy and others.
David then said, with respect to the current issue, in 2018 he became aware of people questioning Billy’s scores. At the time, David noted that he tried to defend Billy. However, KB asked to step back a bit, to the time of King of Kong, asking what Billy’s reputation was like around that time. David recalled Billy’s reputation as being a classic gamer known for his association with Twin Galaxies and his rivalry with Wiebe. David said, in the movie, Billy was portrayed as cocky, arrogant, and a bad guy, with Wiebe portrayed as an underdog.
KB asked David how he first became aware of the Twin Galaxies dispute. David recalled receiving messages about it on about February 2nd or 3rd, 2018. David noted there was an existing controversy over scores by Todd Rogers, and that Donkey Kong Forum had already published evidence and removed Billy’s scores on February 2nd. KB asked if this had garnered attention in the gaming world, to which David said it did within the niche gaming community. David added that Billy has always gotten a lot of attention within that community, that if he was at an event, he’d get top billing, and that Billy was always considered top tier prior to the TG dispute. David did also note that he did hear people question Billy’s scores over the years, but Billy would always have priority with TG, who had always accepted his scores.
KB asked David what Billy’s reputation was like immediately following the cheating scandal. David said, at the time, he saw it as an attack on Billy and was doing his best to defend Billy, adding [“I knew people didn’t like him, but I focused on the facts.”] David thought on the surface the allegations were a “nothing burger”. David recalled writing on Facebook defending Billy, on February 3rd, and that he was then contacted by others in Billy’s circle. David remembered posting to the TG dispute thread on February 8th, and then receiving a text message from Triforce the next day, who told David that Billy would like to talk. Triforce gave David Billy’s phone number, and at his prompting, he called Billy and spoke to him for about an hour, about the cheating allegations, the Two Bit Score converter, about direct feed recordings, and everything. He was also told that Billy’s friend Rob Childs would assemble a layman’s analysis in defense of Billy soon.
KB asked David to clarify that, when he said he was defending Billy, that it was specifically in relation to the Twin Galaxies dispute. David confirmed, describing how the dispute was started by Jeremy Young, saying Billy Mitchell didn’t play on arcade, but actually played on MAME. David recalled thinking it sounded ridiculous, and that he still believed Billy’s claims about having witnesses, referees, videos and pictures corroborating his claimed performances.
KB asked when David’s “benefit declined”? (I’m guessing that’s Australian for one’s opinion of someone lowering.) David said that, after TG removed Billy’s scores, he maintained a relationship with Billy. David wanted to do his own testing, and was able to do so on the hardware Billy claimed to have used for his scores. By the end of his testing, he had received Rob Childs’ Two Bit Score converter to test with, and Jace Hall sent his converter as well. David uploaded a playlist of his testing results to YouTube, and wrote an initial assessment addressed to Jerry Byrum at the International Video Game Hall of Fame. David said [“My conclusion was, it was inconclusive,”] but indicated that even then it seemed the recordings of Billy’s games were not recorded in the way that had been claimed. Meanwhile, David recalls urging Billy and Rob to release the corroborating pictures and videos they claimed to have, noting that Rob Childs claimed to have tons of videos, even though the only videos to have been posted were faked in what Billy called “a YouTube moment”. (Could this be the most YouTube has ever been referenced in a single trial?) Still, David recalls being occasionally contacted by Billy, including when Billy would be in nearby Indianapolis for a play called “Arcade Fire: The Redemption of Billy Mitchell”.
As I’ve indicated previously, a lot of these exchanges are being abbreviated. Normal court procedure calls for attorneys to ask questions, and for witnesses to answer those questions one by one. In writing everything down, I barely had time to keep up with the information, let alone to capture these finer details. David, however, barely needed any prompting or questioning. Going back to KB’s reference to “benefit declined”, this recap was one long spiel, with no indication in my notes of any interruptions by KB.
David continued, recalling his conversations with Billy Junior about their upcoming evidence package, and a game play analysis by DK player Robbie Lakeman. David didn’t know this at the time, but Billy had already filed a lawsuit against TG. On Sept. 9th, 2019, Billy sent out his demand for a retraction. Twin Galaxies reopened their dispute thread, where they published Billy’s new communication. Throughout this package, David found a lot of things that didn’t add up, including statements from Billy that were provable lies. David’s unlisted playlist was also published, as was a conversation David had had with Josh Harmon of EGM. Shortly afterward, David found an Ars Technica article which linked to a post at Donkey Kong Forum regarding a 2006 interview with Robert Mruczek, which showed portions of Billy’s DK tape. In this clip, one could see the emulation signatures, which Billy told him he never used. David previously considered the possibility that someone could have added the emulation frames to Billy’s game play and recorded it back to VHS. David remembered hearing about some anonymous lady calling Billy and claiming that if you got the original 1.047m tape, you would find differences. However, when the 2006 interview was brought to David’s attention, showing those signatures were already present, David referred to it as a turning point, and said Billy’s claim was indefensible at that time.
At this point, KB finally spoke up again, to ask David what his understanding was of Billy’s reputation at that time. David recalled that some people would still defend Billy no matter what, but that by and large, Billy’s reputation was shot. David recalled plenty of articles, including in Variety, and that a plethora more articles came out on the heels of Billy’s banning at Twin Galaxies. David said, from February 2018 to September 2019, he had sought to defend Billy, and that even after the evidence emerged others continued to defend Billy to the end, adding that it’s [“like being in a cult”.]
As I heard that line, I looked over at Billy. He had a very displeased look on his face, having to sit and listen to David tell the truth.
BB lodged an objection that some of this evidence is based on articles, calling back to their previous discussions. Judge said he’s not sure David’s trying to prove anything through media, but rather citing that articles exist. Judge did take a moment, however, to lightly admonish David for referring to Billy as strictly “Mitchell”, clarifying that decorum calls for him to be referred to as “Mister Mitchell”. (I hadn’t really picked up on this prior to this point, and I had written “Billy” or “BM” in most of my notes. Just know that, throughout the proceedings, the judge and barristers were referring to him formally as “Mister Mitchell” and not as just “Mitchell” or “Billy”.)
KB asked David Race how many lawsuits Billy had filed already. David skipped Billy’s lawsuit against Cartoon Network, starting his list with the Twin Galaxies litigation beginning in 2019, with an amended complaint filed in March 2020. David noted another suit against TG in a different venue, in Florida, which David noted is a violation of Florida law. David also listed Billy’s suit against Donkey Kong Forum, Jeremy Young, and Jeff Harrist in Florida, and another against Benjamin Q Smith, a.k.a. Apollo Legend, in early 2020. Lastly, David noted the lawsuit against himself, filed April 8th 2021, over a telephone conversation that was recorded.
KB noted that David seemed to be familiar with these lawsuits. David said he had spent time defending Billy, and that he and others on “Team Billy” believed people were going against classic arcade gamers. Eventually, David recalled realizing he was being used with this false narrative.
KB asked David what Billy’s reputation was at the time of those proceedings. David noted that, privately, Billy would give the impression that nothing would affect him, however among the community Billy’s reputation was that of a cheater. KB asked if David’s impression changed following the Donkey Kong Forum and Apollo Legend proceedings. David said his own mind didn’t change until he realized he’d been lied to and manipulated. David noted that Billy had lost credence in the community, and that he was viewed as someone who had stolen thunder from others.
KB asked David to confirm that this was around the time of the Apollo Legend proceedings in 2020, to which David said this traced back even before then. David began discussing the origins of the Apollo Legend lawsuit, and Apollo’s appearance at Rob Childs’ arcade, drawing a “hearsay” objection from BB. KB clarified, his question was about Billy’s reputation at the time of the Apollo proceedings, not the reason those proceedings were initiated. David said his understanding of Billy’s reputation was that he was seen as a vindictive person, who chose to file lawsuits against people who called him out.
KB asked David if he had seen Karl Jobst’s video, to which David confirmed he had. KB asked what David’s understanding of Billy’s reputation was immediately following and in the weeks and months after that video. David said he didn’t believe it had changed, his reputation was still as a cheater, he had gone after groups like Twin Galaxies and Donkey Kong Forum, and that Billy was still known for retaliatory lawsuits. David said Billy’s reputation was not any better, but can’t say it got worse necessarily. David said some people still defend Billy based on whatever he tells them, but that the overall community still sees him as a liar and cheater who has committed multiple instances of fraud.
KB ended his questioning there, giving way to BB’s opportunity to cross-examine David. First, BB asked David to give a timeline for his “extensive investigation” on behalf of Billy. David said the dispute started on August 28th, 2017, by Jeremy Young, with evidence that a board swap video was faked. Then, the MAME evidence came out on February 2nd, and was brought to the Twin Galaxies thread.
BB asked David what changed about the nature of the criticism during the dispute. David said, additional evidence was accumulated, adding that he started writing posts on his own.
BB asked David if he recalled exactly what date he changed his opinion. David said it was in September 2019, but that it was based on an old interview from 2006. BB asked David to confirm that, from February 2018 to September 2019, he publicly defended Billy. David said he did, one way or another. BB then asked David to address these disagreements David had cited with some members of the community. David said there will always be differences of opinion, and that people like Dwayne Richard were calling Billy a fraud all the way back in 2010.
BB asked if David would have been embarrassed, having to change his position so drastically. David said he is kind of embarrassed that he believed what he did, adding that he had allowed himself to be Billy’s “useful idiot”.
BB asked David if he was concerned how people would think of him. David said he couldn’t change the past, but he could change his assessment based on new information. BB asked David if he felt hurt by Billy. David said anyone would feel hurt if they were taken advantage of like that. David added that, if Billy had apologized, people would have forgiven him. David also added that, if Billy could show a way for arcade to produce MAME screens, David would be the first to apologize.
BB asked David about his practice of recording phone calls with Billy. David clarified that his phone records automatically, that he did not single Billy out. BB then shows Billy’s filing against David Race, with David clarifying that the listed date is April 8th and not August 4th.
BB then shows David one of his two declarations issued in the Twin Galaxies litigation. BB noted that David actively assisted Twin Galaxies in its defense of Billy’s claims. The phrasing from BB was weird to me, as it apparently was to David, as he made it clear he was not defending Billy’s claims, but was defending Twin Galaxies. BB asked to understand the terminology, when David said the disputed scores could not have been produced on an original unmodified Donkey Kong PCB. David clarified that what this means is that the tapes of those scores could not have been produced in that fashion. After another question from BB, KB spoke up to clarify that the witness said it was the videotape recordings that could not have been produced as claimed, adding that it’s an important distinction. David Race then reiterated that the disputed score recordings could not have been produced using original, unmodified arcade hardware.
BB then shows David Race one of his old Facebook posts. (Apologies, I was not able to identify the specific post or date.) David reads the statement [“To the best of my knowledge, neither side has done the necessary testing to make a determination.”] BB asked if this was inconsistent with David’s earlier claim, that his position was inconclusive. David explained, no, that to the best of his knowledge neither side had proven “various conditions”, including things that could be put together with a Donkey Kong machine, adding that Billy would also have to prove some such thing happened.
BB then says [“I’m putting to you that this is a different position than what you answered, which is that it was definitive that those scores did not occur.”] This drew an interjection from the judge, who noted that David did not say this, that David actually said the videos being examined could not have been produced as claimed, which is different than whether someone is able to achieve those scores.
BB asked David if that still remained his position. David said it does not, noting that his position had changed by the time of his written declaration in the Twin Galaxies case the following year.
BB then shows David a copy of Karl’s “Help victims of Billy Mitchell’s lawsuits” GoFundMe page. David confirmed the GoFundMe was started by Karl. BB asked if the purpose of this was to raise funds in defense of Mr. Mitchell’s claims. (Again, both David and I were tripped up by the weird wording.) Judge noted to BB that he was essentially asking David to comment on Karl’s motivations. BB then switched to asking David how much money was raised. David recalled it was over $55k Australian, before being directed to the exact amount of $55,765. When asked if this was raised just to help him, David said his understanding is it would go to help all victims of Billy Mitchell lawsuits, Jeremy Young and Jeff Harrist, however when their suit was not dropped, most of the money went to David’s defense.
BB asked David if he feels he owes anything to Mr. Jobst. David said, no, it was the community who donated the money, and that David is very thankful to the many generous people who donated to the GoFundMe.
BB asked David, when he hears about Billy attending an event, whether he attempts to contact that event to offer his thoughts on Billy.
David said there was one occasion he could think of, where a U.K. event called NERG announced they were welcoming questions for Billy, David recalled asking them if they were paying Billy. Other times, David said, he would contact events if Billy had done something fraudulent at the event, like faking a perfect score. David then recalled reaching out to organizers of the Music City Multi Con, after it was brought to his attention on November 1st that Billy claimed a perfect score on Pac-Man’s “advanced chip”. David recalled Billy getting news press for the claimed achievement, and seeing a video of someone who thought they witnessed a perfect game, but David noted, if you see the score, you can see Billy missed the achievement. David reached out to those organizers, who took the video of the claimed achievement down.
BB then shows David’s communications to NERG organizers. (While the source was not made clear, it’s most likely these were pulled from David’s own public postings.) David’s message included the words “Mitchell was shown to be a liar”, and “Please consider the following”, followed by five links to pages at perfectpacman.com.
BB asked David, if he had no past connection with NERG organizers, why he would send this message, if not to compel them to cancel Billy’s appearance.
David told BB [“No, I would say you’re putting words in my mouth.”]
BB tendered the document, before asking David to clarify what the five provided links were. David said one was “The evidence against Billy Mitchell”, another was a link showing email between Guinness and Billy’s legal team, another was a new tech analysis by Tanner Fokkens, another one titled “Music City Con” about Billy’s fake perfect score there, and finally a link to “Dot One” in a series called “The Video Game Fraud of the Century”.
BB then suggests David was providing those links in an attempt to discredit Billy in the eyes of NERG. David disagrees, citing a U.S. legal principle called “pure opinion”, adding that NERG can have who they want, and that he knew people who did not want to attend NERG due to Billy’s appearance. David added that the gaming community likes to weed out people who cheat, but that if NERG wants to host someone who’s a proven cheater, that’s their business.
BB then shows an email from David Race to Peppers Unlimited, a business that works with Rickey’s Hot Sauce. The email outlined various inconsistencies in Billy’s stories about his time in the hot sauce industry.
BB asked David if he was trying to cause mischief with Billy’s other businesses. David said [“No.”]
BB asked for what other reason David could be sending these messages.
David said BB could make that assumption if he wanted, but that the email was for information purposes, and not an attempt to interfere with Billy’s business.
BB asked David if he’s made in excess of 70 Facebook posts concerning Billy. David acknowledged that the number probably exceeds that, but that a portion of those predate September 2019, when he was still defending Billy. BB asked if there were over 70 such posts that were negative toward Billy. David allowed the number, characterizing them as critical but factual. David then suggested looking at them, adding that if BB had a question David could answer.
BB then shows a series of posts about Rickey’s, which BB seemed to think was one continuous post. BB then asked David why he made this series of posts. David explained it had to do with Billy’s claims not being true, for instance that Billy didn’t found Rickey’s, it was started by his parents. David added that Billy will lie about anything big or small, and that he was using Facebook to point his out. Judge asked David when he made these posts, and David said he could not recall, and would have to examine the posts themselves.
BB then showed a Facebook post capturing a message from David to a Whitney Roberts of the Broken Token podcast. BB notes the message refers to a submission, asking David to confirm he sent them a submission. David confirmed he did send the Broken Token hosts something. BB then reads from Mr. Roberts’ reply, [“Based upon my research, it appears you do have an issue with Billy.”]
BB then asked David, [“Isn’t it true that you are dedicated to making the world see Mr. Mitchell as you see him now?”] BB then clarified, he’s not asking about this one podcast, he’s asking David about his intent. David recalled, in this case, that these organizers claimed to have seen a perfect score from Billy, and even though it was proven conclusively they did not, they still choose to report it.
Around this time, one of my spare pens began to run dry, so I swapped to the other. This began a sequence where I would write with one spare pen for several minutes, before swapping to the other which worked better again, hoping to squeeze out all the ink I could. I was looking at the clock, and the remaining pages in my current notebook, thinking I could maybe squeak by on both accounts before this final day of the court week ends. (I did have a third notebook, but I really didn’t want to add any writing to the pristine masterpiece that was the text message note from Tuesday.)
BB then shows David another post, immediately noting that their copy has some incidental highlighting which did not come from David. BB asked David [“Do you believe Mr. Mitchell is the type of person to victimize other people?”] David answered that he does believe that, adding that his messages are about the discovery of new evidence and the truth.
BB asked [“And how did that make you feel?”]
David answered that his feelings are irrelevant.
BB asked [“But you feel like a victim, don’t you?”] David responded by listing out Billy’s many lawsuits. BB then continued [“And you’re now fighting back, aren’t you? This is you fighting back.”] Without regard to David’s answer, BB continued [“And giving evidence in these proceedings, that’s you fighting back, isn’t it?”] David countered that Billy was effectively attempting to extort Karl through this lawsuit. But once again, ignoring David’s answer, BB continued [“You’re determined to get back at Billy for what he did, aren’t you?”] David said [“Nope. This is a search for the truth.”]
BB declared “Nothing further”. KB announced no further questions as well.
FWIW, I’ve spoken to other attendees who felt David came across as obsessed, and who are concerned this could hurt David’s credibility in the eyes of the judge. However, I don’t think this judge will care too deeply about David’s Facebook history. Through that examination and cross, David was able to paint a portrait of Billy as an out-of-control vindictive litigant, and even if the judge considers David obsessed, that image of Billy will remain as well, bolstered by the further testimony of others. And indeed, Karl’s other witnesses like Jeremy Young and Carlos Pineiro will echo these same sentiments. BB’s questioning of Karl, on the other hand, may look adept, or may look desperate, depending on your perspective. But what can’t be denied is that BB had no interest discussing the facts behind David’s claims against Billy; he only cared about David’s feelings.
At this point, Judge asked to confer with the barristers about the balance of trial. Judge noted that one day had been set aside for both remaining witnesses and closing statements, and that he hoped they would finish the evidence on that day. KB felt they could finish evidence in that one day. But Judge felt it prudent to discuss an additional day to hear “overflow evidence” on October 9th, and to hear closing addresses on October 11th, while apologizing if counsel had other commitments during that time. Judge noted that, if it could not be squeezed into that week, it could be some time before the balance of trial could be heard, which Judge referred to as “not acceptable”. At this point, Judge floated the idea of allowing American parties and Americans in the audience to attend future dates remotely, that they (we) shouldn’t have to waste money on a return. With that out of the way, Judge adjourned for lunch for one hour, with Jobst to return to the witness box.
In the lobby, I encountered another nice young lady who I hadn’t seen yet. She admitted she followed Karl on YouTube (though not on Discord), and had heard about this trial. After coming across my daily updates, she decided couldn’t miss this last day, and called out of work to come to the city and attend. She wasn’t really sure where to eat lunch, and I suggested I was planning on eating at a pho place up the street, so we went there. Along the way, I saw a television at a pub showing American football, Patriots versus Jets, and it took me a moment to process that this was “Thursday Night Football” being played live. At the pho place, I remarked that the noodles here were a bit different than back home, to which my new friend said they seemed similar to pho she’d had in Vietnam. It was at that point that I remembered, yes, we’re way closer to Vietnam here.
Upon our return, I met another new friend, who had a message for me. He is a member of Karl’s Discord, and someone in there was desperately trying to get my attention. I didn’t bother bringing my phone, because it would be a dead weight for most of my trip, which meant I was without mobile Internet. I tried messaging this person from my new friend’s account on his phone, but did not get a reply. I decided not to miss any more court, and that whatever’s going on could wait until I returned to the hotel.
It turned out, the issue was that the comments section on my daily updates had exploded with trolls. Particularly, this person was concerned that I was being “doxxed” in the comments. When I did get back and saw their message, I went to the pages and did a Ctrl-F for my real last name, which came up with no hits. I was confused what this person meant, until I realized someone in the comments kept referring to me as “Walter”. The Discord user didn’t realize I had already identified myself online as Walter, including in the introduction to my video on Billy’s “Music City Con”. However, it also occurred to me that the chucklefucks at Team Billy might not have been aware of that, and that they may have only now learned of my first name when Billy and/or Junior heard me introducing myself to other trial attendees as “Walter”. But, of course, that would suggest the trolls were being urged on by people in Billy’s circle, and we certainly can’t assume that.
WHOOPSIE DAISY
When court reconvened, we had yet more new locals in attendance, as well as some returning regulars hoping to catch this week’s last gasp of testimony. But you know who wasn’t in attendance after lunch? Billy and Billy Junior! Guess they had somewhere more important to be.
This next bit should give you an idea of how desperate Billy’s case is. BB resumed cross by calling back to Karl’s statement from his TG declaration:
When talking on facts I generally show evidence within the video.
BB then called to a December 18th, 2023 video, featuring a call between Karl Jobst and Mutahar of the channel SomeOrdinaryGamers. (While I don’t recall him being named in the proceedings, this was the call discussing Jirard Khalil “The Completionist”.) The relevant portion is the following quote from Karl, heard at about 43 minutes and 40 seconds:
I feel like, aside from the Billy Mitchell stuff, I’m usually not too… you know, I generally keep it pretty factual.
BB began to ask Karl about the recording, before the judge interrupted him to remind him he has to establish that that was Karl speaking those words. You know, procedures. After having Karl confirm those were his words, BB asked [“Do we infer from that that, when you talk about Mr. Mitchell, you don’t keep things factual?”]
Karl said he doesn’t quite understand the question.
BB asked the question again, tying back into Karl’s earlier statements about sensationalism. Karl said that was not what he meant here.
BB asked again, if aside from the Billy Mitchell stuff Karl keeps things factual, does that mean with Billy he does not keep things factual?
Karl explained that, with his Billy Mitchell videos, he provides facts, but he also offers opinions.
BB asked Karl to confirm that some of these are strong opinions, which Karl confirmed. BB then recalled Karl’s words that Billy is “legitimately evil” and a “scumbag”. BB then asked Karl if he denies embellishing the truth in his videos on Billy, which Karl denies.
BB then asks if Karl maintains that everything he has said about Billy is true. Karl denied this as well.
BB asked [“So as a matter of fact, you haven’t kept it factual, have you?”]
Karl answered [“I attempt to.”]
BB asked [“Have there been times you published material about Mr. Mitchell that wasn’t true?”]
Karl replied [“There has been a time, yes.”]
BB asked [“Has there been another?”]
Karl said he couldn’t think of one.
BB then returned to the original video. BB asked Karl to confirm if he had seen that Apollo had settled his claim with Billy before publishing this video. Karl confirmed this. BB asked Karl to confirm that Apollo had removed his Billy Mitchell videos. Karl confirmed this as well. Karl also confirmed that he had read Apollo’s announcement about the settlement, and thus from this he would know that Apollo had remove more videos than just the ones about Apollo.
Karl was then asked to confirm his reply to Apollo’s announcement: “Don’t worry guys, I will never back down.” When asked what he meant by that, Karl explained he would never back down to Billy if he sues him. BB asked if Billy had actually sued him yet. Karl responded that Billy had threatened to, before confirming that, no, he had not actually been sued at that point.
BB then showed Karl the concerns notice he received for the Guinness video, dated 30 July 2020. BB then shows Karl something called the “Settlement Agreement”, dated 22 August 2020. (I believe this to be the actual confidential settlement paperwork between Billy and Apollo, which has not been made public.) BB then offers that he was attempting to establish chronology of events, with regard to Karl’s reply to Apollo’s public statement. It seemed as though BB was about to make some point, before moving on, possibly because Karl’s comment was indeed posted after he’d received the concerns notice.
BB asked Karl to confirm that Billy had not commenced proceedings at that point, which Karl confirmed. BB then asked Karl to confirm that he had never been served with any proceeding over the Guinness film, which Karl again confirmed.
BB called back to Karl’s video, and the claim that Apollo had paid Billy a large sum of money. Karl confirmed that this was what he had said. BB then asked Karl to confirm that he had placed Apollo’s statement on screen during this claim, which Karl confirmed.
BB then asked [“With regard to your statements in the California proceedings, were you trying to tell your audience that this proves your statement was correct?”]
Karl was confused, so BB rewound his line of questioning. BB called back to Karl’s statement from his TG declaration:
When talking on facts I generally show evidence within the video.
BB asked, [“You had this up on screen, and this was your only evidence of a settlement, was it not?”]
Karl disagreed, citing back to the Reddit post. BB said he wasn’t asking about anyone else’s post, asking if he had anything else from Apollo directly regarding the settlement. Karl confirmed this was all he had from Apollo on the matter.
BB replied [“And you put this up on screen to emphasize that what you were saying was correct, didn’t you?”]
Karl responded [“This is not evidence of Apollo paying Billy money.”] Karl added that, in the words he was speaking he was conveying that, but the words on the screen have nothing to do with any exchange of money.
BB went to another exhibit. This exhibit was paused with a Carlos Pineiro text on screen, which BB quickly minimized. (This again was not the inadvertent reveal I foreshadowed.)
BB played again the contested excerpt from Karl’s video. BB asked Karl to confirm that he used part of an earlier Apollo Legend video, to which Karl confirmed he used only a snippet, and only the video portion. (No audio.)
BB then switched to Apollo’s goodbye video, asking Karl to confirm he had seen the video and read the statement that went with it. BB asked Karl if he understood, from that video and post, that Apollo did not blame Billy in any way. Karl confirmed, those two documents did not name Billy in any way.
BB then asked Karl to confirm that, despite that, he still said the following:
He was forced to remove all of his videos about Mitchell’s cheating, and paid him a large sum of money. This left him deeply in debt, which required him to find extra work. But with his ongoing health issues, this was all too much of a burden, and he ultimately took his own life.
BB remarked that none of this came out of Apollo’s goodbye video or that video’s statement. Karl remarked that some of it does, that Apollo’s video spoke to “unpaid taxes” which he felt would burden his family, which was the basis for Karl’s claim that Apollo was “deeply in debt”. BB responded that Karl’s word “this” referred to the claim that Billy’s settlement forced Apollo to pay money, and did not refer to taxes. Karl confirmed that was what he was referring to.
(Around this time, Billy Junior finally straggled back in to the proceedings, with Billy Senior not long behind.)
BB asked Karl to confirm Apollo never mentioned owing money in either his statement or video. Karl confirmed that Apollo did not. Karl also confirmed that Apollo never cited that settlement as a factor in his decision to end his life.
BB then remarked that Karl obviously didn’t accept what Apollo was saying, adding that he never attributed his choice to Billy, but that Karl was. Karl responded by clarifying “I wasn’t blaming Mr. Mitchell.”
As an aside, it was in listening to this line of questioning that I came upon what I would have said in Karl’s place – what I believe is the correct answer. First and foremost, Apollo’s lack of reference to Billy in his waning days cannot be taken of evidence of anything, given the settlement certainly contained a legal obligation not to disparage Billy. Even if Apollo knew he would not personally face consequences in his limited days, such an action could result in damages against his estate he wished to leave for his family. With that said, I do think it’s safe to say, and perhaps even obvious, that the settlement played a role in his tragic decision to end his life. Apollo’s biggest success in life was his YouTube channel, but with that settlement, he could never return to that success. After backing down to Billy, he would never be able to show his face to his audience again. However, I don’t think this belief, that the settlement played a part, necessarily means one must blame Billy Mitchell for Apollo’s decision, which for the record I do not do. There were two parties to that settlement, and as one of those parties, Apollo harmed himself with it as much as anyone else could have. The other party could have been Billy Mitchell, Todd Rogers, Logan Paul, Skeletor, whoever. It didn’t matter. While I don’t have any particular ire to speak ill of the dead (who, I will note, we are only metaphorically exhuming because of Billy’s lawsuit against Karl), Apollo made a lengthy series of poor choices, only one of which was that settlement, and which in totality led him to where he felt he had no choice.
Getting back to the proceeding, at this point Judge called back to Karl’s earlier reference to a Reddit post, asking if he considered Reddit a reliable source of information. Karl said it depends on the circumstances, explaining that Reddit is not really a “source” but rather a place for people to post information from all sorts of sources.
BB then asked Karl to confirm an email between himself and Apollo’s brother. Karl noted that, while the screenshot is timestamped just after midnight on June 4th, 2021, Internet time zones can be tricky. In the message, Karl asked Apollo’s brother whether he knew of any monetary payment between himself and Apollo.
BB then showed another message – a text message exchange, and as routine, asked Karl to confirm this was him in the message.
Karl said no, this was not him.
BB was confused, then quickly withdrew the exhibit, and pulled it from our courtroom screens. Most attendees probably didn’t even get a proper chance to read it.
However, I knew exactly what this text exchange was, because I had seen it before, albeit not for some time. And, sitting quietly in the gallery, I was very excited, because I had been held to confidence regarding this exchange the entire time.
Here is that exchange, which Friday attendees so briefly saw. Given its public disclosure, I asked my source if I could now publish this. He indicated I could, but asked that I remove references to the recipient (who I will call “Chris”) to mitigate any harassment they may receive – although I can identify “Chris” as someone in Billy Mitchell’s social circle. My source (who I will call “Joe”) also asked not to be identified. Calling back to the settlement evidence I presented at the beginning of this update, I will not be able to confirm whether or not this “Chris” is the same “Sam” as before, or whether either “Chris” or “Sam” are any other specifically named individuals from Billy’s circle. Such is the nature of confidential sourcing, I suppose.
As you can see, “Chris” confirms the existence of a cash settlement. But what’s even more important than the content of this exchange was the date and time. June 4th, 2021, at between 10am and 11am, United States time.
Recall from earlier testimony, that Billy Junior uploaded Billy’s video response to Karl Jobst – the one where he denies the existence of a financial payment from Apollo – early in the morning of June 4th…
Remember, we heard over and over and over these leaked reports of a financial payout from Apollo Legend to Billy Mitchell. And in all that time, we heard no denials or counter-narratives from Billy’s camp. Admittedly, I tried to avoid framing things so definitively as Karl did in his video, but it sure seemed certain that Apollo paid Billy a grip of money. That morning, of June 4th, American time, was the first we had ever heard of even a claim to the contrary.
And so the first thing “Joe” did was, he contacted an acquaintance in the Billy camp – “Chris” – and asked them if they knew of a financial payout from Apollo. But here’s the key: “Chris” had no idea that Billy Mitchell had posted a video that morning denying a payout lmaooooooooooo. And so, they answered with the information they believed they had – Basically “Yes, there was a cash settlement, but it wasn’t as much as Junior was looking for.”
I know, it may have been confusing why Karl would make the claim in the first place, and especially why he would put the contested words back up after Billy’s response video. Obviously, I can’t speak to Karl’s motivations. But this certainly had to play a part. Billy Mitchell lies all the time, about everything. Everything we had, including from Billy’s own friends, contradicted Billy’s new story. Why on Earth would we believe this guy was telling the truth here? It was only until Karl reached out to Apollo’s brother that he, and as a result I, came around to believe maybe the claim really was incorrect after all. (But again, as I said at the beginning, it does seem as though Billy was attempting to plant this fake story all the same.)
KARL UNDER FIRE
I have literally one dozen pages of notes left to pound through before I can hit send and go to sleep. So let’s get through this.
Following that inadvertent disclosure, BB confirmed with Karl that he removed the “offending words” on June 4th, Australian time. Karl also indicated it was his intention to seek confirmation of whether or not there was a financial settlement, and that he would seek this confirmation from either Apollo’s brother or from Billy himself. When asked if Karl tried to reach out to Billy, Karl indicated he was blocked by Billy on Twitter at the time, and so he didn’t have a way of contacting him. When asked if Karl still believed the words to be true, Karl indicated he still did at the time.
BB then called up one of Karl’s tweets, where Karl announced he was removing the contested claim. (Apologies, I don’t seem to have access to the exact tweet to show it.) BB nitpicked the exact wording Karl used, which was that he removed the claim [“not because it’s wrong, but because I’d rather Billy sue me over something else”], indicating that Karl still believed the claim to be true. Karl disagreed, saying [“That’s not the reason I removed it”. BB replied by asking Karl if he still wanted the world to understand that the claim he had removed was true. Karl said that what the tweet was about Billy’s new threat to sue him. BB suggested again that it was Karl’s intention to let the world know he still believed the claim – otherwise, BB asked, if the tweet was just about Billy suing him, why wouldn’t Karl say only that? Karl said he did wish to inform his followers that the words were removed, while also clarifying [“I wasn’t trying to tell people it was true, just that it wasn’t removed because it was wrong.”]
BB then directed Karl to the June 7th concerns notice. Karl confirmed he had seen Billy’s response video by the time he received this.
BB asked Karl, if part of the reason he put the words back in was as a “defensive exercise”. Karl asked BB what he meant by “defensive exercise”. BB relayed Karl’s testimony from the day before as being that, upon receiving the concerns notice, Karl realized he would get sued and put the words back up for that reason. KB then interjected, that he believed his client’s testimony was that he restored the words not because he was getting sued, but because he was getting sued anyway, admitting that it might be a minor distinction. Judge brought up the passage in the transcript, and direct BB to it.
BB then read that passage, wherein Karl said that receiving the concerns notice made him believe he couldn’t stop whatever action Billy would take. BB then asked Karl to confirm that [“whatever action Billy would take”] would be to sue him. Karl countered that he had inferred this next step from the concerns notice.
BB asked Karl to confirm again that he had received a concerns notice over the Guinness video, and that Billy did not sue Karl subsequent to that notice. Therefore, BB asked Karl to accept that it was not inevitable that Billy would sue. Karl accepted this interpretation.
BB then showed Karl a tweet, which read something like [“Billy Mitchell’s lawyer has contacted me. This is exciting. We go to war soon. I can’t wait to share this with you all.”] KB objected on the basis of relevance, but the judge allowed BB to proceed. BB also noted a time discrepancy, where the screen capture shows the date as June 6th even though it was sent after the Australian concerns notice was sent on June 7th. Karl was hesitant to testify as to the exact timing, prompting the judge to tell BB that he can simply check with his own solicitors as to when the notice was sent. (Judge may have not realized that it was a previous firm representing Billy who sent that concerns notice.)
BB suggested to Karl that this tweet did not reflect someone who received a concerns notice and felt they could do nothing to stop legal action. Karl disagreed, quoting his words that he and Billy would “go to war soon”, which suggests inevitability. When BB asked Karl if he felt there was nothing he could do to stop it, Karl said that was correct.
BB asked Karl if he could see the inconsistency with that position and that tweet. Karl said he did not. BB asked if Karl was expressing excitement at the prospect of being sued. Karl said he did express that. BB asked what could be “exciting” about that. Karl said Billy Mitchell is a bully, who has the reputation of a bully who sues innocent people for speaking the truth about him. Karl said he believed Billy wanted him to be scared, and chose not to give Billy that satisfaction.
BB asked Karl if he was goading him on. Karl said he doesn’t think that’s the case. BB asked Karl if he still feels the proceeding is “exciting”. Karl said he does not, and that he also did not feel that way at the time.” BB asked why Karl would be tweeting these things he did not believe. Karl said the message was for Billy, not for his followers. BB countered that the message was, in fact, for his followers, drawing an objection from KB.
BB remarked that we’ve heard Karl speak in other publications about the importance of being honest, and that his viewers appreciate him being honest. Karl said that was specifically in relation to his YouTube videos, when he’s reporting on the facts of a situation.
BB responded [“You weren’t being honest about your emotions here, were you?”]
Karl said, in this case, no, he didn’t really want to be sued, and that it would be ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
BB tried to say Karl had said this tweet was directed “to Billy”, before KB interrupted and said the exact words were that the message was “for Billy”. BB asked Karl if he’d hoped Billy would see the message and say [“Oh, I’d better not sue him now.”] Karl said he didn’t believe this tweet would affect Billy’s actions in any way.
BB had Karl confirm that he hadn’t heard back from Apollo’s family by the 9th of June. BB then asked if Karl still believed it was appropriate to restore the contested words at that time. Karl said he did, adding “I don’t believe anything Billy Mitchell says.” BB asked if Billy had said anything to Karl about it, to which Karl said Billy had said something to Keemstar, and had made a statement with his video. BB then asked Karl to confirm that he hadn’t heard from Billy directly. Karl confirmed this, adding again that he didn’t believe Billy, and didn’t believe the claims in the concerns notice. When asked about Keemstar’s role, Karl said Keemstar said Billy believed Karl’s claim was untrue.
BB then posits that, like how the tweet was “for Billy”, the third version of the video was also “for Billy”. Karl said that was not the case.
BB asked Karl if he eventually got confirmation that Apollo did not pay Billy any money. Karl said this was correct.
BB then called to the apology/retraction video, and cited the analytics for that video turned in on Thursday. BB asked Karl why this video had over a million more than his usual videos. Karl said it was because he made it a good video. BB then noted that it’s impossible to tell how many different people and/or devices watched it, adding that Karl may have access to that information and did not provide it. BB also suggested one viewer may have match it many, many times. Karl acknowledged that it was possible for someone to watch the video over and over to inflate the views.
BB then showed Karl the thumbnail from that video, which just read “Dark Souls no hit”. BB asked Karl if he didn’t include Billy in the thumbnail because he didn’t want anyone to know he’d said anything about Billy. Karl said that was not true. BB noted this was also true of the video’s title and description. BB asked Karl, if you wanted people to know about a retraction, wouldn’t he use Billy’s image to draw people’s attention? Karl said, not necessarily. BB pointed back to all those other thumbnails he had Karl review, to which Karl countered that in each of those videos, Billy was the subject of the video.
At this time, KB objects that there’s nothing in the pleading about Karl allegedly trying to bury his retraction. However, Judge read a section from the pleading he considered satisfactory enough to allow BB to proceed.
BB reiterates, if the 20 earlier videos all had Billy in the thumbnail, then therefore if Karl had wanted people to see this one, he would have included Billy in the thumbnail here as well. Karl replied that that’s not necessarily true, and that there’s a particular reasoning to it. BB similarly asked, if Karl wanted people to see the retraction, if he would have added Billy to the title or description, to which Karl said [“Not necessarily”.]
BB asked [“Isn’t it the case that you didn’t want people to know about the retraction?”] Karl said “No”.
BB asked Karl why he wouldn’t put the retraction at the start of the video, rather than the end. Karl answered that this question starts to get into how YouTube promotes videos differently. BB reiterated that, if Karl wanted people to see the retraction, he would have put it at the start. Karl again said “Not necessarily”. BB asked again why Karl put the retraction at the end. Karl said it’s because of the way YouTube’s retention and click-through metrics work.
BB then went to play the retraction segment. BB froze on the following image:
BB asked about the words “He is suing me”, placed over an image of Apollo at an event with Billy. BB asked Karl why he placed those words and the two arrows over that image. Karl informed BB that he did not place those there, that those were in the original video he lifted from Apollo. (Some of us in the gallery chuckled and whispered to each other “Yes, that’s why the arrow from the word ‘Me’ was pointing to Apollo.”)
BB then played the clip, focusing on the following passage, claiming Billy did not reach out to Karl:
He didn’t provide any evidence to back up this claim, nor did he attempt to get in contact with me to clear up any misinformation I may have had.
BB asked, did we not hear earlier that Billy reached out to clear up misinformation? Karl said a third party had reached out. When asked if this third party did so upon Billy’s instigation, Karl said you would have to ask Keemstar about that. BB then asked if Keemstar told him Billy had asked him to reach out. Karl clarified that Keemstar told him Billy was upset, but he never said Billy asked for this to be relayed.
At this point, with about an hour to go in the day and a dozen blank pages left, I accepted that my practice of swapping between my two spare pens was yielding less and less results. I tried to get the attention of my sketch artist friend, who was now sitting five seats down. When he saw me, I attempted pantomiming writing in the air, as if to ask for my spare pen back. He looked at me confused, as did my neighbor next to me. No matter how carefully I tried to demonstrate holding a pen, and writing with it, they both stared blankly. Finally, I pulled one of my spare pens out of my pocket, and pointed with it. Finally, he realized what I was asking for, and passed my spare pen down the line to me. And from here, my blue ink notes became black ink notes, although I guess I could’ve made them red or green instead.
BB then brought up the concerns notice, asking [“Isn’t that him getting in contact with you?”]
Karl said the notice came from Billy’s solicitor, adding [“I didn’t consider that him getting in contact with me.”]
BB noted that lawyers act on the instructions of their clients, before asking [“How is that not him attempting to contact you?”]
Karl said he couldn’t speak to Billy’s intentions, but that when he made the retraction statement, he was referring to Billy himself trying to contact him.
BB then pointed Karl to the concerns notice he had received. BB again framed it as an attempt by Billy to contact Karl about the video, adding that the document says it was sent on behalf of Billy. Karl replied [“I’m not a lawyer, I don’t understand legal processes too well, but I didn’t consider this Mr. Mitchell attempting to contact me.”] BB took a dramatic moment to jot down the words, as if they were a big deal.
BB asked again, this time emphasizing that “he” couldn’t be more clearer in his intentions. However, Karl disputed this, saying [“I’m not trying to be difficult, but if ‘he’ refers to Mr. Mitchell, ‘he’ didn’t write this, and ‘he’ didn’t contact me.”]
BB said he thought Karl admitted to understanding that his solicitor wrote it on behalf of Mr. Mitchell. Karl said yes, on behalf of him, but it still was not him.
BB grinded the point down as fine as he could, asking Karl to accept that this was how Billy chose to reach out to him. Karl did accept that.
BB then noted where in the concerns notice it lists “Facts”, which among other things, claimed that Apollo was not required to pay Billy. BB asked Karl to confirm that this was Billy trying to contact him to clear up information. Karl agreed that it was through his lawyers, but was not Billy directly.
BB asked Karl why he’s making that distinction. Karl replied because that was the distinction he made in his video. BB asked, since the letter was from a solicitor, in Karl’s view that means it wasn’t from Billy directly? Karl said [“Correct.”]
BB asked, would such a letter be even more compelling coming from a solicitor?
Karl said [“No, because Billy’s reputation is that he sues innocent people who call him a cheater.”]
BB asked, if the letter had come from Billy directly, would it have made a difference? Karl said it would not have, but that he felt it would have been a better way to handle the situation.
BB acted stunned by Karl’s admission that it wouldn’t have mattered. Karl added that, he still would not have believed Billy’s claim, but that direct contact would have been more appropriate.
BB posited that Karl wanted to portray in the retraction video that no one on Billy’s behalf had contacted him, and that Billy’s video was his only response. Karl did not agree.
At this point, KB spoke up and asked Judge if he felt a break was due. Judge asked Karl if he felt he needed a break. Karl said he did not.
BB noted that, in his retraction, Karl referred to information he’d received from Apollo’s family, but did not mention the information he received from Billy’s concerns notice. Karl confirmed this was correct. BB said Karl did not think to mention that Billy confirmed what Smith’s family had told him. Karl said he did not. BB said Karl did not want the world to know that Billy had made counter-claims through the concerns notice. Karl said that is not correct.
BB asked Karl to confirm he apologized for giving incorrect information about Apollo paying Billy money. Karl agreed. But then BB noted that Karl didn’t apologize for the rest of the sequence – for saying that payment left Apollo in debt, and forced him to find extra work, and that this along with his health issues led to his suicide. Karl agreed that he did not.
BB asked Karl why he didn’t apologize for that part as well.
Karl said he believed, after that correction, he made it clear he did not believe Billy was responsible for Apollo’s death.
BB noted that Karl still did not apologize for any part of the video linking Apollo’s decline to a non-existent cash payment.
Karl said [“No, I didn’t.”]
BB then had another segment of Karl’s retraction video played:
And no matter what kind of relationship I have with Mitchell, I do not believe that it is ever justified to lie or mislead. Mitchell also claimed that I was accusing him of murder. This is certainly not the case. I do have my opinion regarding the impact of the settlement on Apollo’s decision, but ultimately, it was no one’s responsibility but his own.
BB asked Karl to confirm that he was simply stating that he was not accusing Billy of murder, and was not apologizing for any such inference. Karl agreed.
When BB asked Karl’s opinion was on the impact of the settlement on Apollo’s passing, Karl indicated that his opinion has changed over the years. When asked for that opinion, Karl said [“I believe that the settlement terms had some impact on his life.”] BB asked to clarify that this meant Apollo’s decision to take his own life. Karl agreed, saying “I believe that it may have, yeah.”
Judge then came in with his own questions, asking Karl about the following statement from Karl’s retraction:
The only reason I mentioned it in that video was because I felt like it was important to let you know what happened, as I know many of you enjoyed his videos.
Judge asked Karl to confirm that this was an apology to his viewers for providing false information, and wasn’t really an apology to Mr. Mitchell directly. Karl confirmed that it was not specifically aimed at Billy.
BB continued his questioning, asking Karl if he thought the settlement, through financial means, did affect Apollos decision. Karl indicated he wouldn’t necessarily say it that way.
BB noted that the settlement terms required Apollo to remove all his videos about Billy, and that because Apollo had to remove those videos, he suffered a loss of revenue. This seems like an odd thing for Billy’s barrister to establish, but yes, Karl agreed that was a fair illustration. BB asked if this would have a negative impact on Apollo’s life, and Karl agreed. And so, BB asked Karl if it’s his opinion that this settlement was a factor in Apollo’s decision. Karl agreed that was a portion of his opinion. BB asked if Karl maintained that same opinion, and Karl said he did.
BB asked if Karl still maintained this opinion, even if Apollo himself did not express blame toward Billy. Karl said “Yes”. BB asked if Karl still maintained this opinion even if Apollo chose to remove other videos on other subjects not required by the settlement agreement. Karl said “Yes”. BB asked if Karl maintained this opinion even after learning that Apollo’s family confirmed he had no remaining financial obligation. Karl said “Yes”. BB asked Karl if he still thinks he knows better than everyone. Karl said it was just his opinion.
BB then called back to more words from Karl in the Camelot331 interview, starting at about 11:20:
The Twin Galaxies settlement sucked. Sucked complete ass, man. Billy Mitchell needs to be destroyed in court. He needs to be destroyed in court. So these people need to be punished in a big way before they stop. They need to get taught a lesson, so I am now the last… the last chance that… I’m the last chance the public has to punish Billy. And… In Australia, when you lose, you get… generally almost always get awarded a… you know, a judgment for costs, which means you’ve gotta pay back a certain amount of the costs, and since my costs are so high, Billy’s looking at like a bill for like three- or four-hundred grand when he loses. So if I was Billy, I’d be shitting myself. And also, like, the last person on YouTube you want to lose to is me. ‘Cuz yu know there’s gonna be a hundred vids rubbing it in afterwards. Like, Billy will never… I will never let Billy forget this. Assuming I win. I mean, I understand I’ve… I’ve gotta win first. But man, if I win, oh boy, I’m not gonna be a good winner. I’m not gonna be a good winner.
BB asked Karl [“These proceedings are your crusade against Mr. Mitchell, aren’t they?”] BB further asked Karl if he he’s determined to see Billy answer for something. Karl answered that he indeed hopes to win.
BB then referred to Karl’s continuation of these proceedings, drawing a sharp rebuke from KB. [“My client is the defendant!“] Judge agreed, and reminded BB that it was his client who was continuing the proceedings.
BB asked Karl [“You’re going to keep going after Billy, aren’t you?”]
Karl replied [“I will keep reporting if he sues people, yes.”]
No further questions.
People can take away what they want from Karl’s cross, with the caveat that I’m sure my transcription (not to mention my deciphering of my written transcription) is not perfect. But as someone who witnessed it all unfold, I thought he did excellent. Even the most honest person in the world is going to get tripped up by some bit of verbiage, and it seemed that was all Billy’s barrister had to go on, hence why these irrelevant distinctions were harped on over and over. I sincerely doubt the judge will put too much stock in these things, compared to the major follies from Billy and his witnesses. Meanwhile, BB tried hard to grind Karl down for certain answers that Karl just refused to give him. Billy’s entire case hinged on their ability to break Karl in cross-examination, and so they put their full effort into it. I do remain concerned that some of Karl’s online braggadocio may affect how much Karl is awarded in costs, but that’s out of my control. Hopefully, the judge sees the totality of Billy’s litigation as the shitshow it is, and awards costs accordingly, regardless of what Karl said to some guy on YouTube.
At this point, KB had a chance for further direct questioning, to clear up any matters. KB brought Karl’s attention back to the collection of thumbnails for all his Billy videos. Aside from those that preceded this litigation, KB asked Karl if he would have still made the others had Billy not sued him. Karl said he thinks so, but that his financial situation would have been different, and that could have affected that decision. Karl noted that the videos “I’m being sued and cancelled” and “Billy Mitchell’s gone insane and I need your help” definitely would not have been made in that case.
KB called back to Karl’s testimony in cross-examination, that he has to do so much work in relation to this proceeding that it affects the sorts of videos he can produce. KB asked Karl how much time he’s spent defending this litigation. Karl said it’s over 1000 hours, adding that this matter is obviously very important to him.
KB recalled Karl’s words to the effect that he would have been making different content during this time. Karl reiterated that he enjoys doing videos about speedruns, and talking about world records.
And then came a moment of silence.
Let me tell you, when you’re trying to hurriedly transcribe all these fast conversations, you pray for moments of silence. They give you a chance to get caught up, to go back to your half-written sentences you had to abandon and fill in what was said before it all leaves your brain. And I made full use of this moment of silence, as I did each such moment that came up while they tendered evidence sheets or whatever.
So in that moment, I had no idea what had just happened, until I had caught up, and turned my head back up to look at Karl, only to see his face buried in tissue, his face redder than I had ever seen. He had broken down in tears at that line of questioning. I legitimately couldn’t even believe what I was seeing, after how composed and confident Karl had been throughout the whole process. While I obviously don’t speak for Karl, I interpreted this as a reaction to the thought of all the other cool videos he could have done, all the amazing things he could have spent his time and money on, if he hadn’t had to spend the last few precious years of his life defending this bullshit lawsuit.
And of course, in that moment, I couldn’t help but think of Steve Wiebe from King of Kong.
I’m aware Karl has his trolls and detractors. The day of TG’s settlement statement, they ran with Billy Mitchell’s story of “reinstatement”, not really because they genuinely believe what Billy Mitchell tells them, but because it offered the basis they wanted to disparage Karl. So there’s probably some loser who read the news report of Karl becoming “emotional”, and as soon as they saw this page, they brought it up and “Ctrl-F”ed for the word “cry” (Gotcha!) because, honestly, they’re a sad sack who only wants to see winners like Karl in a moment of weakness. If this had happened during cross-examination, one could maybe say that Billy’s attorneys got to him, but the fact that this was a response to Karl’s own attorney’s questioning speaks to its sincerity. Truthfully, this was a perfectly natural, and perfectly understandable, human response – which means, I doubt Billy Mitchell himself is capable of it. In fact, it should be jarring that this defamation case features a defendant who presents as though they have been deeply wronged by this whole affair, and a plaintiff whose only apparent emotion consists of angry outbursts. I believe this emotional moment played perfectly into Karl’s case, so much so that I will admit, part of me wondered if this was a purely calculated move on Karl’s part, though I would never dare ask him, because it would ruin the moment if I heard him say that it was.
BB was quick to call for a break. Judge agreed to adjourn for about five minutes, during which time Karl composed himself quickly. I don’t believe Billy Junior was in the room for the big moment, and I did not see Billy Senior’s reaction.
During the break, I was told by another regular that two brothers sitting in the front row had actually arrived to watch the proceedings in support of Billy. Apparently, he does still have fans. I never spoke to them myself.
Following the break, Karl was asked again about the other content he would’ve wanted to produce in his videos. Karl indicated speedrunning, and other things, including other cheaters. At this point, Karl became emotional again, but he insisted they continue.
KB asked Karl about his thoughts on Guinness’ reinstatement of Billy, and how this was not his sole reason for disliking Guinness. Karl remarked that Guinness is known for being a place where people buy ridiculous world records, that it’s their whole gimmick. As an example, Karl said a mattress company could partner with Guinness over something silly like the number of mattresses toppled over, and Guinness would say [“Pay us $10,000, and we’ll have someone come and verify that.”]
KB asked Karl to clarify his understanding of Apollo not blaming Billy Mitchell for his decision. Karl clarified that the settlement was a mutually agreed thing, and that it harmed Apollo in many ways, having negative impacts which would have affected his decision in the end.
KB asked if Karl felt anything in the statement or video implied otherwise. Karl said there was not.
KB asked Karl to clarify what he meant earlier when he said he was blocked by Billy on Twitter. Karl said Billy is famous for blocking people on Twitter, adding that he did ask Keemstar to tell Billy the contested segment had been removed. KB then shows this message to Keemstar on screen. Karl noted that his reply was cut off, but that it read [“Tell Billy I’m always happy to correct myself if proven wrong.”]
And with that, the witness was excused. As Day 5 drew to a close, the judge and barristers discussed how to proceed with remaining testimony. KB noted that, if they attempted to call another witness now, it would take them well past 5pm. BB noted a scheduling conflict with a proposed October 9th date. Finally, it was settled that, hopefully, all remaining witnesses could be addressed on October 8th, with written closure submitted the morning of October 10th.
Judge granted people leave to attend future sessions remotely, and extended that privilege to non-parties who wish to be in the public gallery as well, noting that anyone who wishes to do so must apply through the civil list manager. Judge did make clear, however, that he would ask this civil list manager to prepare a list of people who have applied, and would provide that to both sides. BB had the judge also confirm that both Billy’s wife could also watch the proceedings remotely alongside her husband.
KB indicated he would also be tendering a full copy of King of Kong into evidence, adding that he thought Judge wanted to see it. Judge said he didn’t say he wanted to, just that he would. BB noted he’s content with its conclusion as long as it’s taken strictly as evidence of what people saw when they watched it. Judge agreed he would not treat it as truth of anything stated within it. BB joked that he’d be happy to tender some popcorn as well. Judge then joked he could have some Rickey’s Hot Sauce to go along with it.
And thus, court for the week was adjourned at 4:20pm.
IN CLOSING, YOUR HONOR
I’ll try to keep my own closing remarks here as brief as possible. I want to thank everyone who read each of my court updates and responded constructively. It truly warmed my heart to see all the positive reaction coming through, both here and on social media. Sorry that the comment section didn’t stay that way, lol.
My impression is that there’s just no way on earth Billy pulls out a win here. He conceded so many of his important points. His own witnesses shot him in the foot. His case was dead by Day 2 at the latest, and probably before that. Karl could probably rest his case at this point, and his further witnesses will help him, because unlike Billy’s sycophants, they’re actually there to tell the truth.
I don’t know how to break this to people, but I may not be able to proceed with further transcripts of the remaining days. I know, it does seem rather silly that I would fly across the world to attend in person, and then not take advantage of an offer to continue to do so from the comfort of my home. This decision will involve a confluence of circumstances I’ve only begun to consider. At the courthouse, I could just show up with my briefcase and go through the metal detector, no identification necessary. But for online proceedings, I’m not sure I want to fully identify myself on the court record, which seems to be a requirement. Then there’s the fact that my actual job has been very generous with time off already. Then I have to consider that the rest of the testimony probably isn’t going to be that spicy. Jeremy will say Billy was known to be a cheater. Carlos will say Billy was known to be a cheater. BB will try to pin Carlos for his conflicting statements in the TG case, but he can’t impugn everyone. I was very interested to see what kind of proactive case Billy as the plaintiff would make, and how his own witnesses would shit the bed, but I feel like if you’ve followed this situation at all, you know how the rest will play out. The one wild card would be Apollo Legend’s brother, and I’m not sure it would be appropriate for me to broadcast his testimony in the same detail I have the others. Anyway, I have not made a decision at this time, but that content may be something you (and I) will have to wait for a future Karl Jobst video to see. Hey, it’s only right that I leave him some surprises to share for himself.
Thank you again everyone for all the well wishes. I’ve been on some fun journeys before, but this was truly the adventure of a lifetime. This left like traveling to Asgard to fight alongside the Avengers, except with different accents, and a lot of mundane shit you don’t see in the movies like “Will my bank card work in Asgard?” and “Will they have normal food I like there?” I also want to reiterate my profound thanks to some individuals who, without them, this journey would not have been possible. (You know who you are.) Lastly, a big thank you to Hally at Sea-Tac Airport who came through with literally the most clutch customer service I have ever seen.
Oh, and I guess I have to write that thing about Ellrod when I get back. Well, I’ll see some of you here again soon. Have an awesome day!
Thanks again!!!
There’s a simple reason why I know your name is Walter. I’ve been on your YouTube channel and listened to your interviews.
Anyways, it’s clear that Karl is a little cry baby loser. Nice attempt at passing off his breakdown as a heroic act. He cried because he knows the truth. The judge will declare Billy the victor, like usual
You are just a really awful person, aren’t you?
Hey Phil, settle a bet. Does Billy’s cum taste like Rickey’s?
Still waiting for the video you promised last time
I find all these trolling threats of violence within the comments fascinating, especially considering that the belligerents are threatening to kick the asses of men deep into their 50s and 60s. Not sure that’s the flex it’s desired to be … but fascinating, nonetheless.
bang on Phillip!!! these losers are jsust hating on Billy Mitchell because they can’t handle that he’s better than them. its the same as ever with them. f*ck karl and f*ck the haters too lol
Brilliant! Thanks for the finale… to be continued
Fucks sake. Look at this guy here with a photo of himself for an avatar. Anything for internet points and people to look at you. Jesus.
Fuck you Karl you emotional prick!!!!!!! Fuck you Walter!!!!!
Billy Mitchell always wins
Keep saying that come October lol
Derro
Billy defense is people porasanel opinions on him , is there sand he losing money and being defamed, week effort to prove some who doesn’t like him , out right publish stuff in head line new ,,, beilly a narcissist he lives in a dream world, he doesn’t care about anyone or anything but himself ,,, he dead inside and lives in a dream world
he withheld court fees after his settlement with Apollo ?
Oh look, there’s a picture of that other King of Kong fraudster performing his scripted “sobbing” routine from that fraud documentary/docudrama.
“>boohoohoohoo<…….now pay me my liferights check for exploiting this stolen documentary subject matter"
Did Steve perform that fake sobbing on que or did they have to use an onion off camera?
Billy Mitchell was a fraud in that docudrama and so was Steve Webie, a couple of lying scaming bullshit artists together.
Mr. Tim Sczerby, I don’t know if you will read this, but somebody ought to try communicating this to you. What Billy Mitchell did to you was terrible, but Billy did not steal fame or fortune from you. Billy Mitchell is not rich or famous because of his claimed video game scores, he is rich and famous because of his social network. If Billy had never submitted his Pacman and Donkey Kong scores, nobody would remember you or Mr. Rick Fothergill today except for a small group of video game enthusiasts. These scores of yours are only being brought up by anyone today because Billy Mitchell cheated, and people would not still care that Billy cheated if he had not chose to sue everyone. There are much more worthwhile things for you to do than constantly sulk about how you were cheated by Billy Mitchell.
Steve and Billy were paid life rights contracts when they stole from me and exploited for themselves a subject material that I initially achieved and I wasnt. Tell me again how Billy never stole fame or fortune from me? Billy Mitchell in fact did.
This could never have happened without the complicity of Billy Michell and his Twin Galaxies theifdom lying about my score and covering up my rightfull placement in the documentary to begin with.
By rights. Billy should never have been featured in the documentary or docudrama as the undefeated world record holder for over 20 years to begin with any more than that other lying scam Steve Webie was the first to beat Billy’s 1982 arcade world record after 20 years. This was known prior to filming which makes nearly the entire docudrama/ documentary a complete work of fiction. Billy lied when he said only a few parts were. Karl’s lawyers really blew it here.
Tim, the most important thing you ever did was get cheated by a hot sauce salesman.
If he had not done that, there would be no drama, and nobody would care.
Literally nobody gives a golly God-damn about someone’s score in some boomer arcade game, but watching the boomer freakout that’s literally being dragged into the courts is hilarious.
If you didn’t get cheated by Billy, nobody would know your name.
You are NO victim Tim ScrewsLooseBy I am the victim. I’m just as good smelling and well dressed as Billy yet Walter never promoted me like his golden child mullet head. It was MY donkey kong cab in the televised event noone cares about or knows about it but it still counts. I’m famous! I deserve the money to eat as many wings as I want. Just once when I leave a restaurant I want it to be because I’m full not because I ran out of money. This will be the last I speak on the matter, I”m way behind on my morning dulmps”.
Nice try trying to paint Karl as the victor here
Jesus Scerzby, you fucking schizo. Don’t you have a hole to crawl back into? My goodness
“Felix: you autistic retard, I”ll crawl back into my hole when Steve and Billy crawl back under their rock and take their bullshit documentary with them.
Excellent writeup as usual. I see the trolls are out early today. Billy must have them F5’ing your site constantly.
Did you get an idea of when the judge is expected to declare his verdict?
Anyway, thanks for all the hard work over the past week. Safe travels home.
Also:
> I could hear Billy sigh when he heard the host call him a “fucking clown”.
Fucking lol.
I’m a bit out of my element, of course. My understanding is, here in Australia, the judge will go away, review all the evidence, and then just issue a ruling on some random day. No idea when that day will be.
TonyNimrod I could simply end your existence if we ever fought. I’d end you pathetic will to live in 10 seconds. I’m a BJJ purple belt. You’ve been warned
I guzzle Billy Mitchell’s American cum
US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can destroy you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it.
Physical threats, very nice way to tell us that you have no arguments and are an irrational aggressive person.
Please. You’d struggle to end a ham sandwich.
Is there a website or instructions to attend online?
@Phillip You scamp, you.
What is bjj? Blow job jerk?
“benefit declined”
Referring to the idiom “give someone the benefit of the doubt”. To believe something good about someone, rather than something bad, when you have the possibility of doing either.
Yeah baby!!
If you’re open to being influenced by the comments section, I’d love whatever updates we can get.
Just little details, like knowing things do or don’t actually wrap up on the 10th are nice. That said, the more you’re willing to share, the better. No one, including the professional journalists covering this, has come close to helping the rest of us understand what’s been occurring the way you have, and I’d be eager to read any summaries you can give in a few weeks if you’re willing to write any.
“As I concluded in my TG post, Billy’s denial implied one of three possible conclusions:”
Might I offer a fourth possibility?
In that the ‘significant financial settlement’ simply meant Apollo would no longer receive any money from his videos about Billy, and as such the settlement would have included/resulted in (significant?) financial consequences to Apollo?
I completely agree with you on that. Apollo received nothing more for his Billy videos from that moment, all future money from those historical videos went to Billy ad infinitum. That’s a financial loss for Apollo and a financial gain for Billy, and he can even use weasel words to claim he “didn’t get anything”, but knowing in the future, he would have another revenue stream from those videos.
@Codetapper
Well… No.
I think the videos that Apollo handed copyright over to Billy were then also made invisible or deleted, so there would have been no ‘future money’ for Billy I don’t think.
Thanks for the day 5 summary, fantastic as usual. And ignore the Billy-brigade trolls, the vast majority of the world are on Karl’s side here!
Oh, absolutely. As far as I’m concerned, the trolls keep it interesting, as long as they don’t cross certain lines. Thank you for reading!
I am not at all surprised that Casey Ross is in the middle of all the leaks. She is a talented and lovely person who makes great art but unfortunately she fell under Billy Mitchell’s spell. I was her good friend but when things started to heat up with the Twin Galaxies dispute I could see her defending Billy at all costs. Almost the same way a girlfriend would defend her boyfriend against toxic rumors. It was not my place to do or say anything but I had conflicting emotions. I told Evelyn that I don’t think Casey and Billy should be alone together. Needless to say after that Casey was removed from being a twitch administrator. Evelyn was so upset that she blocked Casey on facebook. I did not realize it would come to that. I don’t have a lot of experience with women and how they treat each other. I was only trying to keep Billy from being tempted.
It boggles the mind that the plaintiff’s council tried to suggest to the court that the defendant was pursuing the present lawsuit as a crusade against the plaintiff.
Something that I found interesting was how successful Karl’s videos of Bitchell are.
A quick glance at his YT channel shows that the most popular video about Bitchell 13th most popular video with less than 3m views.
Of his top 50 videos, only 5 or so of them are specifically about Bitchell.
On a counter point, Billy Mitchell’s face and name appear 90 seconds into his most popular video, the one with 18m views mentioned in the write up. Although it makes sense given the context of the video; it was about cheating in video games. Also, the thumbnail of the video has the face of the cheater who is the focal point of the video, something that also came up a lot in the write up.
How does one go about contacting the Minister of Lists or whatever that was. I would like to attend the proceedings and take notes.
Thank you for the update. One thing that came to mind is they’ve been so descriptive that Race and Pineiro (who I’m sure both have read your updates) both know what has transpired already in the courtroom quite well as future witnesses without actually being there.
This has been absolutely riveting. I can hardly thank you enough for the amount of work you’ve done in writing these.
I have a law degree, though I have never gone into licensed practice. (I worked instead as a legal analyst for some years for the state government.) I enjoyed the distinctions between Australian and American process you observed, and your assessments.
I am a bit less rosy overall about the likely outcome only because in my legal education I had it drilled into me that once a matter goes to court, it is ALWAYS possible for you to lose. (This is why settlement is stressed so much in American litigation, and in the one lawsuit I was party to during the past decade, we reached a settlement I was pleased with.)
I don’t think Karl is going to lose for a number of reasons based on how things played out so far, but he is certainly going to continue to live with a certain amount of background stress for another month and who knows potentially how much longer. I was stressing when defending a lawsuit over far smaller stakes. And yes, I paid an attorney to represent me, and did not attempt to go it alone. For Karl to deal with litigation of this intensity without having had a legal education to calibrate from mentally, must have been a miserable ordeal. My heart goes out to him and his family.
I was happy to see that it looks like this case got an inquisitive and curious judge who was willing to learn the video-game-related and Youtube-related material as it emerged, rather than a cranky old-timer who didn’t want to hear it and would have had the trial reduced to he-said she-said. I think this accrues to Karl’s benefit because the better you understand what’s going on in Billyworld, the worse Billy looks.
Again, my hat is avidly and gratefully off to you sir.
Ah man, thanks so much for covering all of this! It’s been an insane read from start to finish
Is it also ok that I’m also here to watch Phillip make an absolute buffoon of himself in the comments?
*Man makes logical statements about his findings*
‘this can ONLY be truly settled by violence in a random park! Then people will know how much you lie!’
Thanks for the incredibly detailed coverage! Desperate times indeed for Team Billy and his buffoons. The end is nigh, and it will be glorious. Fuck Billy Mitchell.
Thanks for everything Ersatz!
Thank you for the updates! Excellent work as always!
Thank you ersatz cats. How was the pho?
It was very good. 🙂
Thanks for all the updates! i’ve been refreshing your blog like a maniac looking for updates. I would love it if you could somehow record the last days as well. But since it’s going to be streamed to the states, what are the odds that someone will record the streams?
Many thanks for your coverage.
I was pulling my hair out for the past few days waiting for the final update 😅
After reading, I have many questions, but there’s a few things that really don’t make sense to me whatsoever:
1) Billys claim that Nakamoura crowned him “VGPOTC”.
This title is hugely disputed, but has anyone ever thought of contacting Namco to simply ask and verify if this is legit?
2) Billy’s claim of “He may as well just say I murdered Apollo Legend”.
Jobst clearly didn’t say anything of the sort. How can someone like Billy twist words into something so untrue and then lead with it in court. That’s so outrageous 🤔 thoughts?
3) The judge in this case is worrisome for me. He doesn’t know what a thumbnail is ? 😦 He doesn’t ask for proof of what Billy was typing on his phone whilst in contempt of court 🤔 and he mentions to BB that he’ll have some “Rickeys Hotsauce” during his viewing of TKOK 😳
I think we have a new BM fan here.
4) The most important for me, which is bank records. During his case with Apollo, BM should have to declare his bank statement to show all and any payments which could have come from an out of court settlement.
I can’t even lodge €500 to my bank and they’re asking me where I got the money. So the onus is on Mitchell to prove he didn’t receive any payment from Apollo.
Even if a previous settlement is deemed confidential, the information of that settlement should be made available to the court to prove the settlement terms and any payout.
But regardless, thank you for all your work covering this trial Ersatz, much appreciated. I’ll come back in Oct once the verdict is declared.
In my opinion it would be absurd to claim Billy murdered Ben when he probably just caused Ben’s suicide by deliberately inflicting emotional distress on him.
Hi Dave and thanks once more ersatz_cats!
To everyone interested in question 1) above about asking Namco, you should be aware that ersatz_cats has previously gone into the “Player of The Century” stuff and Mitchell’s Pac-Man claims in GREAT detail, citing numerous linked references. If you enjoyed the coverage of this trial, you with LOVE this.
To read this, go to the top of this very webpage and click the link under the orange ghost that says “The Video Game Fraud of the Century”. You will probably be astounded, as I was, as to the extent of Mitchell’s lies. And this doesn’t even cover Mitchell’s cheating on Donkey Kong or other more recent stuff like the fake ‘Namco’ plaque that was made.
the judge is on our side lol. lunatic karl would be better off just accepting a plea deal instead of being in debt for life. he said he has to pay 400 grand in legal fees, well Billy Mitchell had to pay double that, enjoy being 1.2 million in debt youtube boy!
A judge is on the side of truth and justice. Billy Mitchell is the liar of the century. When he says “Namco said this, Namco said that” he is referring to a former low tier manager at Namco America, not NAMCO the world wide enterprise. If Billy paid 800,000 in legal fees to defend a reputation and his $20,000 income from appearance fees he is truly a lunatic.
if the judge is on truth and justice’s side he is on Billy Mitchell’s side.
Namco representatives are Namco. you would’ve known that if you’d finished highschool.
Thank you for your excellent reporting, I live near brisbane as well but wasn’t able to get the leave to go see the trial in person, but I feel like I haven’t missed out on anything thanks to you!
Hello. Would u like to go to Hungry Jacks with me and share a whopper with cheese?
Hello everyone, one of the princesses of the underworld here. Its what mortals would call hell. We have already made arrangements for this “BB” person, he’s getting a punishment on the same caliber of Hitler.
Guess what punishments we have in store! There’s NO WRONG ANSWERS! NONE WHATSOEVER!
I’ll give a SLIGHTLY more serious answer, that the FUCK awful lawyer TV shows that my parents watch, could actually teach this “BB” guy how to do his job better. We’re dead as a species, we can’t function anymore.
Not sure where you’re getting that. From what ersatz_cats has reported in these rough transcripts, it looked like BB did an extremely good job of litigating this case. BB’s client, Billy Mitchell, comes in with a position that seems pretty shaky and mostly bluster. It might have looked like BB was being rough on Karl in cross-examination, but that’s what BB was paid to do, and Karl appeared to expect it and was well-prepared by his attorneys for what was coming. BB’s questioning mechanics and strategy come off as exemplary, to anyone who understands how it’s done.
I still think Karl is favorably situated to win overall, but in no way can Billy claim that his lawyers fumbled the ball, despite him giving them fairly bad field position to work with.
What a gross comment … Even scum of the earth deserve legal representation, surely no sane person would really think his lawyer should be damned, let alone punished at the same level as a mass-murderer?!? Saying these kinds of things about people you disagree with … is disgusting.
Imagine if people behaved this way about sports teams? … actually nevermind, I’m worried that you might get ideas…
Thank you so much for the work you have put in. Personally I don’t think anyone can fault you for stopping here. Reading your transcripts has been a highlight of my last two weeks but knowing where to draw your “line in the sand” is a very healthy thing. Thank you again. I’m going back and reading all your work now!
It is sad to hear that you may not continue with these posts in October. Understandibly, there are other priorities in life. Though should you decide to continue, me and many others would be grateful and simply absorb the posts with pleasure, just as the previous ones.
Thanks again so much for your report. It has been a ride!
Finally had time to read through this – I’m working on a project for a show this weekend and time is tight, so I had to slip in and read where I could.
Thanks so much for this recap!
Thank you for covering the trial Ersatz!
While I’m optimistic about the outcome, I do wonder if the judge sees everything the way we see. We are all rooting for Karl, which makes us incredibly biased.
It’s been a delight to read, and I’m glad you took the effort to keep everyone informed. Otherwise most of us would have to wait until Karl’s next video XD
Thank you for your updates throughout, it’s been a pleasure to read. Much love from Australia!
Okay, just so I’m not missing anything or getting confused here… there WAS indeed 100% a financial settlement between Mitchell and Apollo?
Even if there wasn’t, waging lawfare exacts its toll.
Yes… the videos Apollo Legend made about Billy Mitchell had real value since they were making money for Apollo. By surrendering those videos Apollo was giving up income that he really needed. As to whether there was a cash / cash equivalent payment on top of that… we believe there was not. Since we can’t see the details of the settlement we don’t know for certain but Apollo’s brother looked it over and said he didn’t think there was a cash payment. Ersatz Cats has theorized that Mitchell spread the rumor that there was a payment as disinformation. I don’t k ow about that but will admit I’m not as early as close to that as he is.
@ersatz_cats: Thank you a lot for keeping us informed! I am looking forward to the day Karl can return to making videos about world records and exposing cheaters, I love watching his videos, especially those about Doom (the ledges one is my favourite). Greetings from Germany 🙂
….and he thinks that makes him a good judge of character.
Oh, the mirth..
Some of the most pathetic, cock-sucking donkey shit written on the web.. Bravo.
Let’s see what a real judge makes of this cum-guzzling circus freakshow.
It’s less about people liking Karl, and in the interest of fairness there’s actually more then a few things from his past you could legitimately talk about if you want to make a case for him potentially also being a shitbag, it’s more about everyone just wanting Billy to finally eat it in court after years and years of this shit. TBH at this stage anyone willing to see a BM lawsuit though I think would have been rallied behind, Karl’s just the guy it happened to be.
(Re: Karls past shit: Shit like that pick up artist video, being in a certain shitty racist Qanon conspiracy chat group, etc, there are actually a good handful of things the guy needs to address as its not really known if he’s grown up and stopped holding these edgelord views and these friends or if he just keeps it on the DL these days. Trust me, no one thinks Karl is a saint, everyone just wants Billy to eat shit)
What you reckon of the chips at Red Rooter ershatzcat?
Great writeup. Been reading them all silently but felt the need to express my gratitude for all the work put into this. The way you transcribed the moment of silence really hit me in the feels. Here’s to a landslide victory for Karl.
It’s a little weird how different the comment section is when the article doesn’t cover Grunberger’s testimony
I’ve learnt more about defamation law in Aus from an American reporting on a Aus defamation case the has convinced me I never want to be part of it.
Thank you so much for keeping us all updated on the case!
Here is what I believe have hurt Billy’s case the most:
– Karl made it clear that he was relying on reported information regarding a monetary settlement
– Karl retracted the claim and made an apology. MOST news entities simply will post a retraction/correction buried deep somewhere. Accusations on page 1, apology on page 6. That sort of thing.
– Billy made a video which included Karl’s allegation. Billy kept this video up saying “LOOK EVERYONE!!! LOOOOOOOK!!!!” thus amplifying the allegation
– Billy did not establish that the allegation hurt his income. It is clear it hurt his pride, embarassed him, made him the target of hate.
– It has been established that Billy is a known cheater and is litigious
– Karl comes across as a person who reports game related news not some malicious entity
– Billy’s own witness Steve stated “Nah, I didn’t believe that crap” (paraphrase)
And there are still two more witnesses to come forward and give testimony.
Thank you very much for this coverage!
Do you know how to apply in order to remotely attend the october 8th session ?
Do you fucktards even play games or just argue on the internet and put them in your boomer man caves. For fucks sake you wrinkle skinned crinkle cut ballsack licking motherfookeys…
Pac Man and Donkey Kong are both shit boring games. One has no button. The other has one button. Jump. How fucken enthralling to set a high score going left right up and down. You pricks would be great escaping a maze and nothing else. Could navigate your way around a vagina to save your lives.
Go put a potato scallop up your bum and log off the information superhighway.
Look, I never said making up bogus scores was a good idea! Whenever i self entered my own scores, or whatever Todd told me, a 6 can ALWAYS be a 9. If you turn your monitor upside down this way, a score of 96 can be 69!
Hello Probert. Private chat? A/S/L? I like to do reversal sexual with Mrs. and not a Mr.
I saw Billy without a Tie once… he has a very horrible looking Neck Vagina, similar to Donald Trump. What a sad old loosely skinned on the neck man.
Thanks for day 5 @ersatz_cats.
Thank you so much for covering this. It’s been a treat. You write so well, informative, humorous and engaging. It’s been so exciting refreshing every day and reading more. I’ve never been so excited to read in my life. Fiction doesn’t come close to this.
I can’t wait to see Karl win this, and it’s a tragedy it wasn’t streamed live, cause there are so many moments in this that would go down in history on video.
Thanks again for all the transcribing and the discipline required to pay that much attention to the proceedings while transcribing when that isn’t even your main job (at least I assume it is not). While the outcome already seems obvious, all these details and the testimonies just help bring out so many more details and how Billy’s true character that should hopefully stop him from being able to abuse the legal system against any of his other critics. Hopefully Billy can at least learn from this that there are better ways to communicate and deal with critics than trying to silence them.
TY ersatz_cats, you absolute legend!
Actually, as a side point ersatz_cats, if you want someone to sit in and take notes for you drop me a line, we may be able to organise something where I take notes and run some things by you for clarification as you know the history better, and then we can then cobble something together to document the last of it. If you’re keen I assume you can see the email address associated with my comments, because once again, fuck Twitter lmao, but if you think this may be an avenue to get some coverage up on the last section then shoot me an email and we can suss it out.
I’m not part of this community. However, I have been fascinated by the drama. I’m not an expert in English common law as it applies to Australia, but I find it ill advised to sue outside your own legal system if you don’t have an airtight case under their laws.
Your summations have been detailed and appreciated. If this was an American court, I don’t think Mitchell has met a burden of proof and in essence, is wasting his time on an expensive Australian vacation touring courthouses. I may be wrong since I don’t know the nuance of Australian law, but I can’t see this moving to a win for him assuming your writeups are accurate.
Thanks for this recap, during the trials – can’t wait to see what happens
So is it possible for every rando to just apply and get a video seat to the trial in October? Or do you have to like prove you’re from press or something?
Thank you very much ersatz cats for the in-depth coverage.
I wanted to note that something was mentioned in Day 1 or 2 where it was claimed it was difficult to get in contact with Karl. This is untrue as 2 years ago I was able to join his Discord and communicate with him within minutes when I realised information I believed to be urgent.
I look forward to seeing the conclusion of this, hopefully someone may take up chronicling the last leg of this while you’re unable.
As for Karl’s emotional moment, it’s understandable. Imagining all the time wasted over years where you’ve been forced to focus on one problem directed at you when you could’ve been making so much better use of your time, and ultimately not knowing what will happen. Could also partially be due to seeing the light at the end of this tunnel on Friday.
Thank you to some of the commenters here who have provided additional information, it’s been interesting to read the additional perspectives.
Hopefully with the case closing in Karl’s favour, others can be spared the hassle that is BM.
I do wonder how BM is going to treat his “reliable witnesses” after they didn’t help his case. Wonder if it’ll brew bad blood enough to get him uninvited from the events, thus a self-fulfilling moment all of Billy’s own creation. We’ll just have to wait and see.
Okay, I’ll admit I don’t entirely know what I’m doing managing this site, but I believe I’ve turned comments off, given my impending flight home. Seemed like the prudent thing to do, lol. Everything’ll be turned back on again once I’m safe and sound back home.
It’s been heartwarming hearing from so many new people, as well as folks I hadn’t spoken to in years, who have appreciated the coverage. Thank you everyone for reading, and for all the well wishes! As they say here in ‘Straya, Cheers mates!
Safe trip home!!
Ersatz, in the ultimate accidental power move, we can still submit comments and all seems as usual then ‘your comment is awaiting moderation’
You fucker, I was so ready for 10 hours of the most unhinged unmoderated shitposts. You’ve robbed us all.
Or, as we do say: This is an outrage! Imma take this all the way to the Prime Minister!
(In reality, actually a really good move, but UGH)
Sorry to disappoint. 🙂
Thanks again for your coverage Ersatz. It’s been a wild week, but I can stop spamming F5 for now. You’ve done a brilliant job.
Also, I found the email for the Civil List Manager pretty easily, it is publicly listed on the Queensland Courts website under ‘Steps to apply for a trial date’, although if there was a more appropriate method of applying, feel free to correct.
Given that the time difference actually works out pretty good for North America I’ll definitely try to apply and tune in. 9:00AM Brisbane is 5:00PM here the previous day.
@ersatz_cats
You absolute legend! Thank you so much for these updates, it’s been a fascinating read! I hope you decide to cover the October days, but understand if you can’t.
And to all of Billy’s trolling fan boys…. Grow the fuck up, your boy is finally going to get his comeuppance for all he has been putting people thru the last few years!
Comments are still open it seems. Lmao poor Ersatz when you land, as I’m sure it will be yet another shitshow.
… Of which I am completely here for. Let’s fuckin’ go.
Hello you absolute legends, today I want to talk to you about the any % get sued by BM speedrun, of which we are all contenders just by being in this comment section, I’m sure.
But first: Hold on boys, ad time about skincare or something.
On that note, god damn is the Internet Historian video about this going to be fire. Include this comment in it so I can flex on my friends plz and thx
The site still allowed comment submissions. I just flipped the switch where they all go into moderation first.
Thank you truly for all the time and effort you put into this. It’s so greatly appreciated
Not even heinz will sell billy crush tomatoes
Hi Escat
I only call you W…… because I can never remember how to spell your name properly ersatz cats? I always put what you told me back in comments.
reference:
“came up with no hits. I was confused what this person meant, until I realized someone in the comments kept referring to me as “Walter”. The Discord us
Was it me that caused all this problems?
I’m still reading the article , but had to write something because I felt like I caused all this problems.
Also you mention that Karl decided to leave like Billy decided to leave during David’s testimony, and I assumed that Billy left, but I read that you mentioned Billy was there during David’s testimony?
So Billy really did have to sit through all that then.
Cool ill go back to reading this and I hope it wasn’t me
Oh no, you’re fine! I’ve been public with my first name. But sometimes, I wonder if the Billy camp even put in that much effort.
You told me your name in the comments section in one of the first few pages I ever I read, I asked if the guy who compiled all this is still around and I thought it was amazing to meet you and talk to you the guy who did all this amazing work and that you were accessible.
Thank you for the amazing coverage and to the lengths you went to cover this trial. Been awaiting eagerly every day after seeing your write-up the first day.
waiting to
oct 8th
Thanks for the coverage! It sucked to have to rely on media outlets who seemed almost entirely uninterested in reporting on this, and when they did they always put “Donkey Kong Champion” in their titles with the most barebones reporting of what was going on. Small snippets of things Billy said and that was it. Drove me nuts! So finally getting to read what was happening is nice, even if it took me several days to catch up. I’ve been following this situation since seeing Apollo’s original viral video back in the day, been looking forward to Billy’s day in court for about 4 years now. Hope you enjoyed your trip, sir!
Thank you for reading! And I did very much enjoy the trip. 🙂
“BB acted stunned by Karl’s admission that it wouldn’t have mattered. ”
Yeah, I don’t think Karl was at his best here, he comes across as belligerent. IMO the ideal reaction would be along the lines of ‘I wouldn’t have reacted that strongly if there was no threat of litigation’.
It’s fine.
He’s referring to the matter of Billy contacting him directly instead of through a lawyer; bringing up the threat of litigation would be irrelevant in that context. Keep in mind too that Karl doesn’t have to worry about image when he’s completely in the right here; his testimony just needs to be genuine and consistent. By avoiding any half truths, non-sequiturs, and lies by omission, it denies BB’s cross-examination any damning openings.
He can seem belligerent if he wants; BB tried milking that angle and KB had to remind him that Karl’s the defendant, with the judge agreeing.
All this is insane.
So much energy for that stupid declaration.
Ersatz,
Just wondering, have you spoken to any lawyers/barristers who are distant from this case, for their opinions on who is winning?
I’m pretty hooked on this case, and would enjoy reading a further blog entry on how you feel overall about the trial thus far.
Maybe a summary of sorts would keep us all interested until Oct comes round 😁
And thanks again for the coverage you absolute legend 👍
Thank you so much again dude.
I think you should attend the final day remotely if you practically can. Even though you would have to provide your name to the court and the parties, that sort of stuff usually doesn’t go into evidence. It is worth noting that parties to court proceedings are obligated to not rely on documents or information gained in the litigation process, for purposes outside of that litigation. This obligation generally only comes to an end when that information goes into evidence in open court (such when it’s tendered as a document at trial or a witness has given evidence of it). Might be worth looking into the Harman undertaking and having a think about it.
Awesome work again ersatz. These updates have really been incredible. I’ve been following the Billy story since King of Kong first came out sixteen years ago and was desperate for this level of detail on the trial. Wonderful work.
The trolls in this comment section are hilarious. Do you think they all share a keyboard, or is that just the communal braincell? The insults you’ve faced from them wouldn’t be out of place on the playground of the school I teach at. Kudos for the grace you’ve shown in the face of unending immature shithousery.
Would still really like to donate somehow, you’ve earned that buck like a MF.
Understand and respect whatever decision you end up making regarding the continuation.
Much love from the UK.
WOW, that was perhaps your biggest post of coverage by far !! I can only imagine how many hours it must have taken you to write all of that.
Are you planning on full coverage all the way up to the judge’s ruling ?