Did Karl Jobst lie about the Billy Mitchell lawsuit?

by ersatz_cats

If I may immediately begin on a personal note, I’ve been researching the Billy Mitchell saga for over seven years, and have been writing about it for almost as long. And if there’s one thing that’s a constant in this case, as sure as the Shakespearean Northern Star, it’s misinformation.

This isn’t an accident, of course. We are dealing with Billy Mitchell, a lying cheating liar fraud who will seemingly lie about literally anything. “I matched my contested DK scores exactly on the head.” “JAMMA named me Video Game Player of the Century”. (Those are paraphrases, not direct quotes.) And this goes beyond specific lies. As we’ll see below, Billy Mitchell is an accomplished manipulator – perhaps his one true skill in life.

But it doesn’t need to be intentional disinformation from Billy or his associates. For example, in October 2020, it was reported both that Billy Mitchell won his lawsuit against Twin Galaxies, and that he lost that same lawsuit, all when in reality, there were a couple notable pre-trial rulings, neither of which ended the case.

And if I may have a moment of candor with you all, little bits of misinformation on this case are fucking everywhere. And it’s usually not malicious. People just get shit wrong. I can’t bother correcting it every time I see it, because that’s literally all I would ever do with my time. And I hate to break it to you, folks tend to not have high opinions of that guy who’s always correcting people.

But that doesn’t mean I don’t see at least some incorrect/misleading information in just about every piece of Billy-related media produced. One of the reasons I was so effusive of my praise for Veritas’ four-hour YouTube documentary on Billy Mitchell was because he got literally nothing wrong (that I could identify). Believe me, I had my notepad ready to go, and it was like “Uhhh, you misspelled a word, that’s it.” I was truly astonished that another human being could produce something about this saga that long, and that detailed, with that much information, all with no errors, aside from his mispronunciation of “Fokkens”, which it turns out he got from me. (Sorry, V!)

I guess this is the curse of being super-duper-knowledgeable about this one extremely niche subject. If you’ve ever been an expert on a topic lots of people casually discuss, you probably know what I mean. I can put the information out there, like with my “The evidence against Billy Mitchell” summary, and hope people see it. But I get it. Shit’s hella long – largely because Billy keeps spinning new lies to cover for the old ones – and not everyone has time or sufficient interest to read it all.

But there’s also a corollary to misinformation, which is misinformed opinions. You can’t call it “misinformation” exactly, as it’s not factual, but it is just as misguided. Think “Kamala should have tried to be even more Republican” or “Kansas City would have won that Super Bowl 99 times out of 100” or “I don’t like how Star Trek got so political”. You know, terribly dumb takes like that. But since it’s an opinion, it’s usually not as simple as showing the factual correction. And obviously, we’re talking about degrees as well. “Kansas City should have won” is arguably a misinformed opinion, but it’s not nearly as baseless as the “99 times” garbage take.

Admittedly, it’s also easy for me, as the expert on this case, to get lost in the forest, so to speak. To that point, I’d like to use the following example. On April 12, 2019, the one-year anniversary of the Twin Galaxies dispute verdict, I published the very first edition of “The evidence against Billy Mitchell”. Basically, it’s a place to collect all the relevant evidence against Billy’s cheated Donkey Kong scores, for preservation and ease of access. The original used the same premise seen in the much longer version today, with grouped sections and items with bolded headers and brief explanations. At the end, I put “DEFLECTIONS AND DISTRACTIONS”, for all the especially silly nonsense Billy was peddling. And that’s where I originally tucked the following:

“BUT BILLY JUST REDID THOSE SCORES, SO HE’S PROVEN HE’S LEGIT.”

And I put that item under that “DEFLECTIONS” header because I thought oooobviouslyyyy people understand why that’s a total distraction and farce. Obviously being able to do a big score on Donkey Kong today doesn’t prove he didn’t cheat to do that score a decade ago, for a few reasons. Obviously.

But as I followed the saga, I saw that narrative kept landing with people. “Why are you still saying Billy cheated? He literally redid the scores. What more proof do you need?”

So at some point, I had to accept that this was a valid hurdle casual observers of the case were not clearing without some guidance. Granted, Billy Mitchell knows what he did, and he knows why new high scores don’t exonerate him. But there was no point in getting mad or upset at bystanders who didn’t automatically understand that. If you don’t follow this shit as closely as some of us do, I guess you just don’t know, or don’t see why that framing was dishonest. And so, if you check the modern version of “Evidence”, you’ll see that particular item has been split into two (“But isn’t Billy a good player?” and “Didn’t Billy recreate all his contested scores?”) and moved up to the section for “VALID QUESTIONS”.

All of this is to set up discussion of what you already know is today’s topic: Did Karl Jobst lie about the Billy Mitchell lawsuit?

I was a bit taken aback these last couple nights, reading all the reactions to the ruling. (And most of that ruling will be a subject of another upcoming write-up.) At first I saw someone suggest that Karl lied about what he was being sued for, and that his GoFundMe was a scam. Specifically, some people thought Karl was being sued for calling Billy a cheater, and not for a factual inaccuracy about Billy’s settlement with Apollo.

And I immediately thought “Well, that’s silly. Everyone knows, right? We’ve all been discussing this case for years. I did an extensive ‘Day Zero’ write up in September, explaining in detail what this case was about. Did people really just have no idea all along?”

But apparently so! Again, I don’t mean to lay blame here. The vast majority of folks with that misperception aren’t malicious. Believe me, I understand, this case is a massive rabbit hole, and most of y’all have better things to do than keep up on every single detail. I personally would’ve made more of an effort to broadcast the underpinning of the lawsuit if I thought so many people would turn out to be uninformed about it, and would be so offended at learning their impression was incorrect. Like the earlier “Evidence” bit, I guess I was too deep into the forest on this one.

While I have the benefit of being able to address these cases at will, Karl was sort of in a bind. He wisely limited his discussion of the details of an ongoing lawsuit he was defending, but he did continue speaking at length about Billy being a cheater, which he could do because it was tangential to the lawsuit. And I guess this fed into the misperception folks had that this lawsuit was about cheating allegations?

But I hope folks can approach this with enough good faith to understand that, just because they were ultimately misinformed or mistaken, does not mean any particular person was trying to mislead them. And that’s what I hope to address today. I’m not interested in defending myself, as my writing was very clear. Rather, since Karl is still in a position where free discussion of his case can be difficult, I hope to lay out the facts for those who want them.

WHAT EXACTLY WAS THE LAWSUIT ABOUT?

We’ll get into the timeline of how Jobst presented the lawsuit in a moment. But first, since I already know some folks won’t read “Day Zero” no matter how many times I link it, let me offer a brief overview of what the lawsuit was about.

Content warning: Self-harm

In December 2020, months after an out-of-court settlement with Billy Mitchell, young YouTuber Apollo Legend took his own life. Five months later, Karl discussed this in a video about Billy and Todd Rogers titled “The Biggest Conmen In Video Game History Strike Again!” Here was the exact offending passage:

[Billy] also sued YouTuber Apollo Legend for one million dollars. I haven’t spoken about this publicly, but this lawsuit ultimately ended with Apollo giving in, and settling with Mitchell. He was forced to remove all of his videos about Mitchell’s cheating, and paid him a large sum of money. This left him deeply in debt, which required him to find extra work. But with his ongoing health issues, this was all too much of a burden, and he ultimately took his own life. Not that Billy Mitchell would ever care, though. In fact, when Billy Mitchell thought Apollo died earlier, he expressed joy at the thought. The lawsuit against Apollo was just as frivolous as the rest, and Apollo definitely would have won in court, but again, he was extremely ill and couldn’t handle the ongoing stress.

We’ll dissect this a bit more later, but for now, you are allowed to state facts, even if they paint someone in a poor light. So legally, the only problem with this passage should be the claim that Apollo paid Billy “a large sum of money” as part of the settlement. At the time, it was believed to be true, but it turned out it was not.

Why was this claim believed to be true?

For one thing, it felt highly dubious that Billy would let Apollo walk away without even paying for so much as Billy’s legal fees. (Billy did bring on an actual “attorney”, of a sort, but he’s a topic for another day.)

But here’s the ironic twist: People in Billy’s own circle were claiming Apollo was forced to pay Billy money.

(Note: Please do not harass anyone mentioned in this or any write-up.)

If you want more deets, check out my lengthier explanation as part of “Day 5”. First, pro-Billy playwright Casey Ross announced that Apollo Legend was seeking a settlement prior to any other such public announcement:

We all thought it was ridiculous at the time, given Apollo’s braggadocio in declaring he would never give Billy any money or delete his videos. And Casey’s reference to a settlement was edited out of that YouTube comment soon after it was posted. But in retrospect, it was clear she knew of the settlement at a time when only Billy and his inner circle were aware of it.

There were also Reddit comments, including one claiming to have knowledge of a financial payout from Apollo to Billy, well before any settlement was announced. Obviously, you can’t rely on Reddit comments alone, but given these highly unlikely predictions were actually coming true, it gave a strong impression that Billy’s camp was full of leaks.

More importantly, someone on “Team Truth” (as I call it) had regular contact with a confidential source from Team Billy, who I will name only as “Sam”. Sam claimed in late 2019 that Guinness had agreed to reinstate Billy’s fraudulent Donkey Kong scores. This seemed utterly preposterous at the time for many reasons, and yet it turned out to be absolutely true. Sam also confided that Apollo had reached out to Billy to settle, prior to any public knowledge of this. With those two accurate predictions under their belt, Sam then also reported that Apollo paid Billy a significant amount of money in the agreement. And again, this was all before any settlement was announced.

Like it or not, this is definitely sufficient grounds for believing something to be true (although Karl obviously went too far in asserting it as known fact). Keep in mind also, there was no counter-narrative until Billy uploaded his video threat to Karl. (More on that video in a moment.) So we all just thought we knew a thing Billy didn’t want to admit.

And even then, we would come into yet more evidence after the fact. Immediately following Billy’s first public claim that Apollo never paid him any money, one of our folks reached out to an anonymous source from Billy’s circle, who I’ll call “Chris”. (Sorry, I cannot confirm if “Sam” and “Chris” are the same person.) Chris didn’t know that Billy had just publicly denied receiving any money from Apollo. So instead, they reported what they believed they knew – that Apollo did indeed pay out money, but maybe not as much as previously believed:

This wasn’t properly addressed at trial, because Karl’s lawyers bungled the case tremendously. But that’s a topic for another time.

Oh, one more thing. Since I don’t believe for a second that a bunch of Billy’s friends made up the same falsehood together, I have no doubt that either Billy or Billy Junior themselves were falsely spreading the claim that Apollo was forced to pay Billy money. Remember, at the time, Apollo was alive and well, so they may have seen such a lie as a deterrent, and Apollo couldn’t contradict this due to the settlement’s confidentiality. So please, when you read anyone claim there was a financial settlement, and you ask yourself “Is this statement defamatory”, keep in mind who the ultimate source of that claim really was.

Moving right along…

SO WHAT EXACTLY DID KARL SAY ABOUT THE LAWSUIT?

Folks who have read my coverage are already familiar with what we’ve discussed so far. But the true point of today’s exercise is to review how exactly Karl (and others) represented this legal battle along the way. Was the gaming public “misled”? Or were some folks just not paying attention to the information that was out there?

We can say this saga started with a July 2020 video titled “Guinness World Records Should Stay Out of Gaming”. (This video is no longer online, due to Guinness copyright claiming videos discussing them.) While clowning on Guinness, Karl briefly used their fraudulent reinstatement of Billy Mitchell’s cheated Donkey Kong records as an example of their lack of credibility. This resulted in Karl receiving a “Concerns Notice” from Billy, specifically for Karl’s statements about Billy’s cheated scores.

In Australia, a “Concerns Notice” is a required first step toward suing someone for defamation. It’s basically a legal threat. Note that some people (particularly one specific individual from Billy’s camp) have quibbled over Jobst’s characterization of a Concerns Notice as a “lawsuit”, and technically I would say it is not. However, it also depends on how exactly a given statement is phrased. For instance, if Billy sent you a CN, you would be well within your right to say “Billy Mitchell is suing me”, because it is indeed a threat to sue you, expressing direct intent to sue you, and it is a required part of that process, even if no formal litigation paperwork has been filed. It’s like, if you say “My friend is going to have a baby”, you don’t necessarily mean literally right this second.

A month later, Karl responded to this notice by way of a video titled “The DUMBEST Lawsuit in Video Game History”. This video predated the announcement of the Apollo Legend settlement, so again, it focused on Billy’s cheating. The titular “dumbest lawsuit” was Billy’s defamation claim against Twin Galaxies in California, but Karl also showed off the Concerns Notice he had received, and highlighted all the lies contained therein.

Again, to be clear, Billy was threatening to sue Karl strictly over cheating allegations, and Karl was correctly discussing it.

Karl briefly mentioned Billy in an October 2020 video on arcade Donkey Kong, and covered TG’s countersuit against Billy in November. However, it was Karl’s May 2021 “Conmen” video covering lawsuits from both Billy and Todd that resulted in the full lawsuit. The previously cited passage from that video was edited down, then restored, then permanently removed. (If you want more specifics, sorry, you’re just gonna have to read “Day Zero”.) This was also the video that introduced the first GoFundMe Karl set up, specifically to support David Race, Jeremy Young, and Jeff Harrist, as they defended themselves against separate Billy Mitchell lawsuits.

On June 4th, Billy posted a video to his own channel titled “Response to Karl Jobst Regarding Apollo Legend”. The video, which was originally located here, has been set to private for some time, but I have an offline copy (of course), and you can find a quality transcription of it at this link. Here’s basically the gist:

Greetings to everyone who took the time to click on this video. I am Billy Mitchell, and welcome to my channel. In fact many of you may find it hard to believe that I’m here because I almost never upload to YouTube for any reason. However, I wanted to formally respond to recent accusations that Karl Jobst made of me, related to Apollo Legend.

May 26th, Jobst released a video downright loaded with false, defamatory statements. The most heinous accusation related to Apollo’s passing. In the video Jobst outright states that I drove Apollo to suicide. In his words, he may as well have just said “murder”. For those of you who haven’t seen it, here’s the clip:

We’ll discuss framing when we wrap up today, but Billy Mitchell does this a lot. He shows some piece of evidence, and asserts outlandish claims which are not actually backed up by that evidence. There was a single factual inaccuracy in Karl’s video, so it certainly couldn’t be said to have been “downright loaded with false, defamatory statements”. Karl also didn’t “outright [state] that [Billy] drove Apollo to suicide”, and he certainly didn’t say “murder”. But this was the case Billy was attempting to drum up.

You can read the rest of the transcript at the link. But the point here is, Billy Mitchell himself made very clear in a public forum what the basis for his lawsuit against Karl Jobst would be:

The real reason why Jobst fabricated this story, to blame me for Apollo’s suicide, is because he wanted to rile up his viewers’ emotions. The reality is that Jobst recklessly talked about an agreement that he wasn’t privy to, and nothing he said was true. It was very premeditated, and it was very calculated. I was going to ignore Karl forever, but this? This cannot be ignored. I plan to respond the way that everybody anticipates for me to respond. And Karl? Expect me.

Imma be real with you here, sib…

If you didn’t know, that’s fine. If you didn’t follow this saga closely enough to know the lawsuit was about something other than cheating allegations, okay. I accept that.

But that does not mean the information was not out there. Billy Mitchell broadcast his intentions himself. And, later that same day, Karl acknowledged Billy’s threat on Twitter:

(Note: The above tweet was posted prior to confirmation from Apollo’s brother that there was no monetary settlement. At that time, we still had the aforementioned indications of a payout, and we had only Billy’s word indicating otherwise.)

Last night, I actually saw someone on Discord suggest this tweet in fact hurts Karl’s position today, because (as they put it) it suggests to the audience that the eventual lawsuit was not about the Apollo Legend stuff, and was about fake DK scores. And if I may say, that framing is completely asinine. Even if that was your first assumption, if you didn’t understand that you were making an assumption which shouldn’t be considered final without at least some verification, dude, that’s on you, not Karl.

Look again, I get it. The Internet may never forget, but it often seems to have an incredibly short memory for moments like these. It is possible for lots of people to know a thing for a day or two, and then to forget they ever knew it two years later. (Is there a name for that effect? Can I suggest one?) So, from my vantage here in the forest, and excluding all the examples we’re about to discuss, I can see now how so many folks could believe years later that the lawsuit was about cheating, while those of us who continued to follow it all along knew it was about Apollo Legend. However, the point of all this is, when this stuff all blew up, it was well understood by everyone what the contested statement was about. It wasn’t a secret. It wasn’t hidden behind a paywall, or a functionally-equivalent tome of ersatz_cats text. Everyone was just talking about it. And Karl could hardly be considered to have been misrepresenting it.

Karl followed up with a couple other tweets, which I sadly seem to have misplaced – please share them if you have them – explaining that he ended up taking down the offending passage. Then in July, Karl explained the situation in a retraction included at the end of an unrelated but highly viewed video titled “The Greatest Feat In Video Game History”:

Now, before I finish the video, I would like to take this opportunity to correct something that I said in a previous video. Back in May, I talked about the new lawsuits filed by Todd Rogers and Billy Mitchell. In that video, I made the claim that Apollo Legend paid money to Billy Mitchell as part of their settlement. I would never make such a claim unless I had very good evidence to support my position. In response to this, Billy Mitchell released a video accusing me of lying, and claiming that no money was exchanged. He didn’t provide any evidence to back up this claim, nor did he attempt to get in contact with me to clear up any misinformation I may have had. However, I did investigate further, as I would never want to provide false information to my viewers. I reached out to a member of Apollo’s family, who graciously agreed to clarify some details. According to them, despite Mitchell’s best efforts, Apollo Legend would not pay any money, and in the final version of the settlement, there was no clause indicating that he was required to do so. Therefore, the statement I made in that video was almost certainly incorrect. I sincerely apologize for providing false information. And no matter what kind of relationship I have with Mitchell, I do not believe that it is ever justified to lie or mislead. Mitchell also claimed that I was accusing him of murder. This is certainly not the case. I do have my opinion regarding the impact of the settlement on Apollo’s decision, but ultimately, it was no one’s responsibility but his own. The only reason I mentioned it in that video was because I felt like it was important to let you know what happened, as I know many of you enjoyed his videos.

However, this acknowledgment and retraction of his incorrect statement didn’t quell Billy’s litigious envy. Billy did end up sending Karl a Concerns Notice over the Apollo claim, and eventually filed a proper lawsuit, with some bullshit Australia firm that no longer exists. (Again, “Day Zero”.)

Flash forward to September 2021. In a video titled “I’m Being SUED and CANCELLED!”, Karl discussed this emerging lawsuit for the first time in video form. You can watch the section for yourself, but I’ve highlighted the key parts here:

Hello you absolute legends. The madman finally did it. On the 13th of September, 2021, the speedrunner Karl Jobst achieved this lawsuit. Until now, Billy Mitchell had only made threats about suing me. But he finally pulled the trigger, and has made it official by filing a complaint in the district court of Queensland, which is the state in which I live.

Karl then discussed some unrelated online drama, before circling back to his impending lawsuit defense:

Normally, I’d give you a full breakdown of this kind of thing. But because this one involves me, I’m going to keep my cards a lot closer to my chest. What I will tell you is that I am being sued for defamation, and the amount of damages being sought is $450,000. I will definitely be giving you updates as we go, but I don’t want to give out too many details or strategies before I use them in court.

Karl then explained differences between American and Australian defamation law, before continuing:

So if Billy Mitchell wants $450,000 in damages, he’d need to directly show that something I’ve said has caused him to lose that much money. That’s going to be a bit of a struggle, given that Billy Mitchell doesn’t really have much of a reputation to destroy by this point. Not only does the public widely accept that he is a serial liar and cheater, but he’s also being sued for millions of dollars for fraud.

At this point, Karl shows pre-existing news articles relating to Billy’s legal battle with TG in California. Karl then continued:

Billy Mitchell already sued Twin Galaxies and many other people for destroying his reputation, citing massive economical loss. There are only so many times you can claim that a party has destroyed your reputation before it no longer holds any merit.

Aside from this, I have multiple defenses. I never make claims without ample evidence to support them, or some kind of justification. When I do get something wrong, I would always be happy to admit it. In fact, I even made a clarification to something I said in a video Billy Mitchell said was wrong, which I will link in the description. I am a big fan of discourse, and am generally always willing to listen and consider the other side of the story. It doesn’t mean I’ll accept it or agree, but I have a very open mind, and will listen as long as the discussion is respectful and sincere.

And the link Karl referenced in the description was the “Greatest Feat” video with the aforementioned retraction. Yes, it is fair to point out that Karl did not directly say “This retraction I’m linking is directly related to the lawsuit”, but if you did follow the link he provided, you would be right to wonder whether that section, all about an untrue claim made about Billy Mitchell, might somehow be playing a part in the emerging lawsuit.

Before dedicating the remainder of this video to the unrelated drama, Karl wrapped up his lawsuit announcement as follows:

As everyone knows, lawsuits are extremely expensive. If this goes the entire distance, the final price tag could be well over a hundred thousand dollars, especially given that I have a really good team of lawyers. A lot of people have offered support, and I’m definitely contemplating doing a GoFundMe, but I feel really bad doing so, given that I did one just a few months ago for the other people Billy is suing. As I’ve mentioned before, Minecraft creator Notch has pledged to help, and has been doing so. But again, I feel bad taking money from anyone, no matter how wealthy they might be.

During this sequence, Karl took care not to mention Apollo directly, or show references to him on screen. So I can understand how this could be spun into a narrative of “Karl Jobst didn’t want you to know”. However, as we’re about to see, this conclusion falls apart to scrutiny.

First of all, it is wise not to discuss specifics of a lawsuit you are defending.

Since this seems to be a detail many are struggling with, I will repeat it louder for those in the back.

It is wise.

Not to discuss.

Specifics of a lawsuit.

You are defending.

If you need me to explain why this is a general rule of litigation, you need to read something else, and not waste my time.

Also, since this was a defamation claim, if Karl had linked back to his contested statements, Billy could have potentially used that against him, by claiming that Karl was re-amplifying those statements by doing so. (It obviously didn’t matter that Billy himself was amplifying those claims, as we’ve now seen.) Again, there’s a good reason why you should just generally not say anything about your case, because there are a myriad of factors involved, not all of which can be easily considered.

But none of this necessarily means people’s concerns are unfair. So the question then becomes, was Karl going out of his way to hide what the lawsuit was about?

And I do not believe so. During this sequence, Karl showed excerpts of the legal filing, and articles relating to Billy’s California lawsuit. None of these images shown invoke the name of Apollo Legend. However, Karl also displayed the headline and byline of an article on TheGamer titled “YouTuber Karl Jobst Sued By Billy Mitchell”, written by Rhiannon Bevan. Here’s how the article appears today:

One could fairly interpret Karl’s inclusion of that article as an invitation to read further. And in the article, Rhiannon starts by saying “not much is known about the case”, and says “it is likely that Mitchell is suing in relation to the cheating allegations”. However, some of this framing does feel strange, considering they then link to a tweet by Billy Mitchell, wherein he published a key excerpt from the lawsuit itself. That tweet used to be located here, but thankfully, I found a screencap in my files:

Again, at the time this was unfolding, none of this was a secret. And even if you were blocked by Billy and couldn’t see his tweet directly, Rhiannon does clarify in their article what the new lawsuit was about:

This new lawsuit claims that the video gives the impression that Mitchell’s court settlement was a “major contributing factor” to Apollo Legend’s mental health issues which resulted in Legend taking his own life, and would therefore amount to defamation.

So perhaps, their claim that “not much is known about the case” was a qualifier, in case the lawsuit was additionally about some other things, which had not yet been revealed? Hey, that’s fair. But the necessary information was out there, at least. Karl didn’t tell you directly “I’m being sued for X Y and Z.” But if you wanted to know, you could have informed yourself, up to this day.

As you’re well aware, Karl continued covering Billy Mitchell’s lies and other legal battles, with only occasional references to his own case. Jumping ahead a bit, Karl made no mention of the Australia lawsuit whatsoever in this Billy video, or this Billy video, or this Billy video, or this Billy video, or this Billy video, or this Billy video, or this Billy video, or this Billy video. The intro of this video refers to Billy’s “proceeding lawsuit”, but the context makes it clear Karl was talking about Billy’s California lawsuit against Twin Galaxies, with again no discussion about the Australia lawsuit. This video’s intro also clearly discusses the California lawsuit, which Karl clarified he had “nothing to do with”. This video briefly discusses how discovery in the California lawsuit affects discovery in the Australia lawsuit and vice versa, but he again did not discuss Australia case specifics. And in January 2024, when announcing Billy’s settlement with TG, Karl concluded with a brief reference to his upcoming trial, with no discussion of subject matter.

One of the arguments I’m seeing is that, since Karl spoke so much about Billy’s cheating in these videos, it would be fair for people to assume the lawsuit was about cheating as well. But of course, one would be right to think such a proposition is preposterous, precisely because silence is known to be so professionally prudent. (After all, if you said the wrong thing, it could be a P.R. nightmare har har!) Setting aside bad faith actors, who will say anything, I’m not going to get on anyone’s case if this was genuinely the source of their confusion. But I would politely say, the fact that Karl continued speaking in great detail about Billy’s cheating was, if anything, a potential indication that the lawsuit was about something else. If you accept that, then we’re good, and we can still be friends.

But I’m sure some will yet find that answer unsatisfying. After all, Karl kept talking about all these other Billy Mitchell lawsuits, without always being super-clear he was not discussing his own. And thus, the argument would seem to evolve into “You can’t discuss one of Billy Mitchell’s lawsuits without discussing all of them and differentiating each of them”. At that point, I don’t really know what to say. Honestly, these are probably the same people who wouldn’t read “Day Zero” because it’s too long. They want an exact volume of information, forced into their field of attention without being too forced. Their porridge is always either too hot, or too cold, or sometimes both at once. In the real world, you can definitely discuss one or even multiple of Billy Mitchell’s lawsuits without having to discuss all of them in full detail, and definitely without having to discuss your own lawsuit defense. In my writing, I choose to provide added detail, because I would prefer to cater toward readers who appreciate that sort of thing. But I’m appreciative that others out there offer briefer summaries of that work, and I believe folks are correct to want those as well.

Anyway, getting back to the Karl Jobst timeline, with all those irrelevant examples out of the way, let’s back up and look at a November 5th, 2022 video titled “Billy Mitchell Has Gone Insane And I Need Your Help”. This was the first time since the aforementioned “Sued and Cancelled” video that Karl discussed his lawsuit at length on YouTube. In it, Karl discusses the fresh round of legal threats he received from Billy:

In April of this year, I released a video called “Disgraced gamer Billy Mitchell accused of extortion,” where I factually and objectively reported on accusations made against Mitchell by the current Donkey Kong world record holder, Robbie Lakeman. If you watched that video, you’ll notice that at no point did I ever give my opinion on the validity of those accusations. I was simply reporting on public claims made by a very noteworthy person, who was also someone that Mitchell was using as a defense witness in his own lawsuits. But Mitchell didn’t want to sue the person that actually made the claims. No, he wants to sue me just for talking about them.

Karl then proceeded to discuss two more Concerns Notices he received from Billy. The first discusses Robbie Lakeman and Billy’s Donkey Kong cheating. This one resulted in a formal complaint which actually was filed with the court, before being abandoned later, meaning that at least for a brief time it genuinely was a “lawsuit”. The second involved an Angry Video Game Nerd fan meme portraying Billy as a cheater, which also got Billy’s underpants in a twist. (It really is unreal to me how so many self-perceived alpha types flock to one of the most insecure manbabies on the planet.)

So, all told, this was now four times Billy had threatened to sue Karl, three of which were specifically about cheating. Karl discussed the cheating ones in detail, but did not mention Apollo, the subject of the proceeding lawsuit he was actively defending.

Now you might say “Hold up! You just told me it’s unwise to discuss lawsuits! So why is Karl talking about all these concerns notices?”

Well, I can identify a few answers to that. First, as a general rule, it is possible for someone to do something wise one day, and stupid the next, and this does not necessarily make the first day’s action unwise. Just because Karl chose to talk about the Concerns Notices relating to cheating, doesn’t mean he’s obligated to spill any beans about another lawsuit he’s more carefully defending. But this is also readily explained by the fact he knew at this point that he screwed up something in the Apollo-related video. No matter what his justification was, no matter what legal defenses he had available, he made a factually inaccurate statement. And so it’s perfectly understandable for him to be careful about discussing and reamplifying that statement further. On the other hand, the Donkey Kong cheating allegations are well known and fully grounded, so he may feel more comfortable letting loose on those.

I’ll discuss framing in a bit, but let’s make something clear. If someone walked away from this video thinking Billy Mitchell was suing Karl Jobst over cheating allegations, that’s because that is literally what Billy Mitchell was doing. That was a factually accurate impression. So any misimpression anyone may have had would’ve been related to what the specific lawsuit proceeding toward trial was about. And remember, these circumstances aren’t an accident. It isn’t Karl’s fault if people walked away thinking he was being sued for calling Billy Mitchell a cheater. This was all Billy Mitchell’s doing. The reason anyone may have a hard time teasing out all these lawsuits and legal threats is because it’s Billy Mitchell who throws around so many of them.

This video introduced the second GoFundMe Karl set up, which this time was in his own defense. We’ll talk about that in a moment. He also showed an article from the Courier Mail, which is paywall-locked, and a piece from the Daily Mail, which lists several of Billy’s counter-assertions, including the following:

He says Jobst made another false claim by accusing him of ‘callously’ expressing joy after learning of the death of famous YouTuber Ben Smith.

Hey, look, it’s the Daily Mail. What do you expect? But at least Apollo’s name was in there. And honestly, this should be enough for an inquisitive someone to at least seek around for an answer.

“C’mon ersatz! Quit being so obtuse! Karl was specifically avoiding discussing Apollo Legend, or letting anyone know his death had anything to do with the lawsuit, and you know it!

Well well well, imaginary counterpointer. You may try to argue this, based on what you’ve seen so far. *cracks knuckles* But you couldn’t be more wrong. And this finally brings us to a rather important video from August 2023 titled “Billy Mitchell Accuses Me Of Fraud During Insane Rant!”

Honestly, I recommend you rewatch the whole thing. Karl points out many outlandish lies Billy told in a single panel presentation in the UK, while discussing various procedural points of the Australia lawsuit. Karl also showed off each of the four Concerns Notices he had received, one of which he identified as being “in regards to Apollo Legend”. And Karl also showed a clip from Billy’s original response video – the one where Billy accused Karl of invoking “murder”. In fact, Karl showed a portion of that video in context:

As you see, it’s a sort of picture-in-picture deal. Granted, nobody should be just taking anything Billy Mitchell says at face value. But in this case, had they taken interest in hearing what Billy had to say, they would immediately understand the lawsuit was about Apollo – or at least, they would have a strong indication which they could then confirm through non-Billy outlets. Hey, I was the known reporter of Billy Mitchell things by that point. I would’ve happily answered what the Australia case was about, had anyone asked at the time. Also, as you see, the title as shown by Karl even mentions Apollo directly.

But the most important part of Karl’s “Accuses” video starts at about 6:30. Here was Billy Mitchell, in his own words:

And eventually, without a single source, except a now-deleted post on Reddit… now-deleted post was his only source, where he blamed me for taking the life of another human being, and for what I did to him.

Let’s set aside the “single source” part, which is obviously untrue. (To be clear, I had originally written about the sources we had about two years prior to this presentation.) Karl didn’t break out giant flags and wave them around and say “This is the main crux of Billy’s lawsuit against me”… but anyone watching should understand this was a serious point. Note that since Karl was simply repeating Billy’s own words, he reasonably shouldn’t anticipate this being argued as amplification of defamatory claims. Thus, while simply repeating the untrue statement of his own could have introduced liability, sharing this clip of Billy was a safer way to indicate what the lawsuit was about.

So how did Karl frame this in the video? Here was Karl, in his own words:

Billy Mitchell is referring to the YouTuber Apollo Legend, who tragically took his own life in December of 2020. I won’t go into specifics about this particular point, because it does relate to his ongoing lawsuit against me. But again, everything he just said is a lie. I didn’t say what he claims that I said. And my source for what I did say was not just a deleted post on Reddit. Billy knows all of my sources, because I gave them to him as part of the proceedings. And once the lawsuit is over, which should be hopefully very soon, all of the details will be made public.

HOLY SHIT.

Why are we here again?

Okay, the answer to “Did Karl Jobst lie about the Billy Mitchell lawsuit?” is obviously “The fuck no”. And anyone saying Karl was trying to bury any references to Apollo in his videos is just a liar, or perhaps gullible enough to believe whatever Billy Mitchell defenders tell them. It’s okay if you didn’t watch all of Karl’s videos, or remember everything Karl said. Just like it’s okay if you don’t read all my bullshit. But that doesn’t mean nobody was trying to tell you something.

But hey, let’s just be suuuuuuuuper generous and continue this conversation by reframing the question thusly: “Did Karl at any point mislead people about the Billy Mitchell lawsuit?”

The next relevant portion comes at 10:40. Again, here’s Billy in his own words:

The complaint actually says nothing, not a single word about video games, nothing. But he has gone online… and has led you to believe that it has to do with the allegations, and it doesn’t.

Remember, this is the dude who sent Karl three Concerns Notices strictly about cheating allegations. And he knows this. He knows doing these things causes chaos and confusion. In the introduction, I referred to Billy Mitchell as “an accomplished manipulator”, and this is part of how he manipulates people. Everything hinges on what Billy decides he meant by “The complaint” at any given point in time. So if you find Karl discussing the other legal threats, which were about cheating allegations, and you come to the conclusion those threats are the subject of the main lawsuit, Billy can then turn around and pull a “gotcha” when he reveals that your impression was not true. In this way, he can plant the idea in your head that there may be some validity to Billy’s claims, and that maybe he has a point about Karl, when in fact Billy lies constantly, and only tells you what he thinks will achieve his goals in that moment. And ultimately, he can deny having ever lied to you, because he was simply talking about “The complaint”.

Karl was limited in what he could reasonably say, but he did attempt to dispel this misrepresentation as well:

I have never spoken about what the lawsuit is actually about. I haven’t led anyone to believe anything. I have said that I’m being sued for defamation, but I’ve never talked about the specifics of the lawsuit. And I won’t talk about them until the lawsuit is over. However, I will say that Billy Mitchell being a video game cheater is extremely relevant to the lawsuit. Billy Mitchell being happy about Apollo Legend dying is extremely relevant. Billy Mitchell abusing the legal system is extremely relevant.

During this passage, Karl showed a portion of his filed defense, which includes “contextual imputations” which are “substantially true”:

Sure, three of those are about Billy’s reputation as a cheater, and one is about his reputation as a crazed litigant. And item (iv) of course harkens back to Billy’s texts about Apollo’s rumored death. Gosh, this lawsuit sounds super-complicated! Like it’s about a bunch of different things all at once. Glad Karl was able to clarify this as much as possible.

Billy spends the rest of that panel telling a bunch more lies, which I’m always tempted to go through and debunk. Again, go ahead and give Karl’s video a rewatch, and you’ll see. You’ll recognize more Billy lies immediately just from reading this write-up. In particular, Billy was trying hard to falsely illustrate Karl Jobst as a swindler (gasp), who was lying to you to take your money (double-gasp).

I was about to say we should stay on topic and move on, however, at the very end of that video, Karl included this line from Billy:

He cannot possibly defend the fact that he said I took the life of a human being. And I’m not, not gonna let it go, no matter what.

Wait HOLY SHIT!!! That’s what this lawsuit was about? Why did literally nobody say anything about this until now?

I’ll round out the rest of Karl’s videos on the subject here, just to be thorough. The next one to meaningfully reference his own lawsuit was “Cheater Billy Mitchell Is Running Scared”, published in October 2023. While the video mostly focused on Billy’s efforts to prolong the California legal battle, Karl added two segments, highlighting his own eagerness to head to trial in Australia, and how Billy had to replace a lawyer who retired. But again, Karl did not discuss any specifics of the case. Note that, while Karl did not reference Apollo, he did show some of Billy’s “STATEMENT OF CLAIM”, which referenced the original “Conmen” video:

Again, if one was interested, this would’ve been a solid jumping off point. “Huh, what about that video was so contentious?” Even with the allegedly offending portions removed, one could still watch that video, and get that it was about multiple subjects, and that it dealt with Apollo Legend. Heck, the point where a portion was removed at 16:52 is still very obvious from even a casual watch. (If you use , and . to track through frames, you can still see residual frames from both sides of the cut.) If one were to assume they knew the answer for why this video caused this lawsuit, without even so much as a search of social media, I don’t really see why that would be Karl’s fault.

In May 2024, Karl posted his last pre-trial update titled “I’m FINALLY Going To Trial Against Billy Mitchell!” The first half of this video discusses procedural stuff, including whether a settlement could happen, and what sort of legal costs the loser would owe the winner. At around the 8-minute mark, Karl began discussing some facts relating to the case, beginning with the following disclaimer:

Obviously, I’m not going to cover everything here. And don’t worry, I’m not going to spill any secrets, or give away any strategies. Everything I mention here will be public information, and already known to both parties.

There are multiple ways to defend a defamation claim in Australia that go beyond just proving what you said was true, or that it wasn’t defamatory. One of them is to say that Billy didn’t have a good reputation to begin with, so it’s not possible that I caused him any damage. Before I published the video in question, it was already well-established that Billy was a cheater. He had already been sued for fraud by Twin Galaxies, and I had already covered all of this in previous videos.

Let’s start by examining this from a technical, perhaps even pedantic perspective. Karl did make clear that he’s not discussing everything to do with the case. But more importantly, he highlighted how defamation defense goes beyond just whether the contested statement was true. To an astute and critical viewer, this should be a potential indication that the lawsuit was about a statement that was not true. After all, if it was about video game cheating, since Billy’s cheating has been so thoroughly proven and documented, there’s no real reason to dig into issues of pre-existing reputation. Also, Karl identifies Billy’s poor reputation as being based on both his cheating and his fraud (related to the sale of TG to Jace Hall), which are separate things. That too should indicate to the viewer that this lawsuit went beyond just a litigation of Billy’s high score claims.

But let’s drop the pedantry, and be real about this. You may ask, why didn’t Karl just tell everyone “I’m being sued for saying something about Billy that was technically untrue?”

The cynic would say – and so it would seem, is currently saying – that Karl deliberately wanted to hide the fact that he had made a critical mistake, as to encourage people to continue to fund his legal defense. But the problem is, it’s just as reasonable to conclude he didn’t want to make this admission for obvious legal reasons.

Wait, do I hear an echo from the back?

It is wise.

Not to discuss.

Specifics of a lawsuit.

You are defending.

Oh, that.

If Karl’s other videos had suppressed any references to his contested “Conmen” video, or any references to Apollo’s suicide, or Billy’s claims about Karl’s statements, I’d be inclined to concede there may be a point here. But as we’ve seen, Karl literally did not suppress any of those things. He just didn’t discuss them directly, for obvious reasons. And most of his videos were strictly about Billy’s other lawsuits, and his general cheating and con-artistry. And honestly, nobody should have just assumed those videos about those topics represented the focus of the Australia lawsuit Karl was correct to avoid discussing.

Karl then listed things that would be argued at trial, such as that Billy was banned from Twin Galaxies for cheating. And the thing is, that literally was argued at trial. This was not an inaccurate preview. But for the “He lied by omission” crowd, Karl offered this as well, at about 10:18:

I’m also going to argue that he expressed joy at the thought of the YouTuber Apollo Legend’s death. This is obviously a terrible thing, and not only did he imply he was going to smile and giggle if Apollo Legend died, but he also said that he hoped it was true. This was in 2018, which was two years before Apollo Legend actually died. At this time, Billy had only heard that he had died from his wife, and he was gleefully texting about it to his friends. Billy’s defense to this is that Apollo Legend didn’t die until 2020, so Billy only thought Apollo Legend had died, which makes his texts okay. Yes, this really is Billy’s defense.

Sure, Karl isn’t shining a direct spotlight on the specific factual inaccuracy that led us here. But how could anyone think he’s trying to mislead everyone into thinking this lawsuit was just about cheated scores?

Karl also highlighted Billy’s abuse of litigation to force critics into silence, before explaining the relevance of all this at about 11:10:

You may be asking why any of this is relevant. And it’s because it all damages his reputation. It doesn’t matter if he can show that I was incorrect on one thing. Even if he were to prove that I was wrong about a specific claim, there are many other claims that were true, and also damaged his reputation. So as a whole, any incorrect claim I may have made didn’t cause any extra damage.

Again, Karl was just illustrating the breadth of this case, without repeating the one contentious statement that he was wise not to amplify or discuss. He then gives this summary of his defense, at about 11:40:

From my side, I’m going to argue that what I said wasn’t defamatory, that Billy’s reputation was already terrible, and that I’ve said so many damaging things about him that were true and that I can prove, that even if he did show that one thing I said was wrong, it didn’t make a difference. And there are other very important things on top of this that I won’t discuss until after trial happens.

Notice what Karl didn’t say he was going to argue about the contested statement.

Again, he uttered a factual inaccuracy, and I accept and acknowledge that. But it’s not like folks watching his videos had no way of knowing there was more to the story, or any indication that maybe, if they were curious about these details, it could have been prudent to inquire further. Sure, casual folks don’t have to traipse as far into the forest as some of us have, but it’s hard for someone, at least in my position, to genuinely see this misunderstanding as being Karl’s fault.

The trial was split between September and October, with parties waiting a few months for the verdict. During that time, Karl released two more videos on Billy Mitchell, both of which contain brief references to him awaiting the outcome of the case, and some procedural stuff, but no real discussion of the trial topics.

So let’s get to the last item, which is Karl’s GoFundMe. We’re talking about the second one, which was dedicated to his own lawsuit defense. Here is the full text from that fundraiser:

Hello you Absolute Legends,

My name is Karl Jobst and I’m a youtuber who often reports on video game cheaters. Last year, Billy Mitchell, star of The King of Kong and proven video game cheater, sued me for defamation claiming damages of $450,000. In the past year alone, this lawsuit has cost almost $200,000 to defend, and will cost at least another $100,000 before it’s over.

The situation is already crazy, but has since gotten much worse as Billy Mitchell has sent me another defamation lawsuit for another $450,000. So that would mean I will need to defend two lawsuits at the same time, both being extremely expensive. But then it gets even worse because Billy is threatening me with even more lawsuits.

These lawsuits are unhinged and it is highly likely Billy will ultimately lose, but until we go to trial it requires a lot of money to deal with. I would appreciate any help that you are able to provide, as this affects not only me but my family as well. Obviously it’s bad enough to attack me when I’ve done nothing wrong, but to injure them as well takes things to another level.

Naturally, the more money I am able to raise, the better my legal defence will be. That’s just the way it works. If and when I defeat Mitchell in court, he will likely have to pay back a lot of the costs that I incurred. I will use that money to host a grand gaming tournament in his honour.

I appreciate all of the support!

-Karl

And his later update:

Hello you Absolute Legends.

Thanks so much for the support you’ve given so far. Billy Mitchell ended up backing out of the 2nd lawsuit, which means all funds will go towards helping with the existing lawsuit (and to deal with the inevitable future threats).

I’m hoping to get the trial done within the next few months so fingers crossed it’s all wrapped up soon!

-Karl

Wait a motherfucking second…

Are you telling me…

…Has this “controversy” been a nothing-burger all along!?!?

Karl literally just said he’s being sued by Billy, and identified him as a “proven video game cheater”. And he said the case was about defamation. Each of those assertions are true. And Karl discussed literally nothing else relating to the case.

Anyone donating to the GoFundMe would have been well within their right to ask “What exactly did Karl say that defamed Billy?” before donating. And while Karl could not discuss it, surely someone with knowledge would’ve been happy to clarify.

And to me, the worst part is, Karl literally could have said he was being sued for calling Billy a cheater, because that was indeed the subject of the second lawsuit Billy was filing. But Karl didn’t even say that. He could have and did not.

He didn’t discuss the details of the lawsuit, not because he was trying to mislead, or lie by omission, but because that’s what you’re supposed to do.

Geez, man.

We’re just about to where we discuss dishonest framing, but I do sincerely believe the folks being swept up in this current “Karl scammed everyone with his GoFundMe” narrative are being taken advantage of by bad faith actors. I respect that there’s people’s hard-earned money involved. It’s not my wish to get all “Buyer beware” with you. I’m not going to quote the Rules of Acquisition. I’m greatly appreciative to everyone who contributed toward Karl’s original GoFundMe to support other defendants (including the late Jeff Harrist), and those who donated to Karl’s second GoFundMe supporting his own defense, as well as those who gave generously to my GoFundMe to help cover my travel costs associated with reporting on the trial in Australia. But there comes a point at which I just don’t know what to say. Billy was filing a vindictive lawsuit against Karl Jobst – one which I still consider baseless, even if the judge has decided otherwise. Karl needed the community’s help to defend it. And you helped him defend it. Yes, Karl made a critical mistake, and yes, he found some terrible lawyers. And I have no doubt Karl will own up to his mistakes once he feels he can discuss the case freely. But you weren’t wrong to want to support Karl, because – mistakes acknowledged – in this case, he was always ethically in the right.

I want to say so badly that this entire “Did Karl lie” premise is shot, passed on, ceased to be, bereft of life. An ex-premise. But let’s be as charitable as humanly fucking possible, and rephrase the question yet again, this time as follows:

“Should Karl have said extra?”

I mean, I guess so? Like I said, I was surprised so many people had the misunderstanding that this lawsuit was strictly about cheated scores. But I do have to accept that enough people carried this misperception to make it relevant. I, for one, never wanted so many people to follow this particular sub-saga thinking one thing about it, and then feeling duped when they discovered it was about something else. I would rather you just know the truth all along, and I believe my frankly indefensible amount of coverage of these lawsuits attests to that intention. And I do wonder how the shock of Karl’s loss has amplified people’s emotions upon being simultaneously told “This was all over a thing you didn’t know” (or forgot about).

At any rate, yes, Karl should probably have said a bit more. Given how much he did discuss his case, I’m not sure exactly how that could’ve been done, without… you know, doing the thing you’re also not supposed to do as a defendant. But I’m not his defense attorney, so I’ll leave it to him to address that point further.

As for me, I know you motherfuckers ain’t even gonna try telling me I should’ve said more, because you know that if you do, I will personally come to your house and assault you in front of your cats.

FRAMED

I’d like to wrap up today’s discussion by talking a bit about framing. For a second, try to set aside all the characterizations you’ve heard about Karl’s words, or even the recent Australia judgment. Cleanse your heart, and your mind, of this week’s toxicity.

Let’s look at the allegedly offending text from Karl one more time, from a fresh perspective:

[Billy] also sued YouTuber Apollo Legend for one million dollars. I haven’t spoken about this publicly, but this lawsuit ultimately ended with Apollo giving in, and settling with Mitchell. He was forced to remove all of his videos about Mitchell’s cheating, and paid him a large sum of money. This left him deeply in debt, which required him to find extra work. But with his ongoing health issues, this was all too much of a burden, and he ultimately took his own life. Not that Billy Mitchell would ever care, though. In fact, when Billy Mitchell thought Apollo died earlier, he expressed joy at the thought. The lawsuit against Apollo was just as frivolous as the rest, and Apollo definitely would have won in court, but again, he was extremely ill and couldn’t handle the ongoing stress.

When I first heard this, aside from the fact that a financial settlement was unconfirmed, and I personally would not have reported such a payout as plain truth until it was, I thought this was okay to say. Karl simply reported a series of believed-to-be-true statements. He didn’t say “Billy Mitchell drove Apollo to suicide”, or “Billy Mitchell wanted Apollo dead”, or any of the outrageous stuff being summarized today. He didn’t even say he believed Billy himself was a cause of Apollo committing suicide. As far as settlements go, it takes two to tango. I do believe it would be fair to say that Apollo’s choice to humiliate himself in this way may have contributed to his later choice to end his own life. But it would also be reasonable to conclude there was a third thing causing both of those actions, such as the health problems, which oh by the way, Karl made sure to point out, so everyone would understand the whole situation. Karl even pointed out that, by all rights, Apollo should have won any legal battle, which would suggest Apollo’s choice was due to some other concern. One could also read this and think “Yeah, maybe Billy went too far, but I hesitate to blame any suicide on anybody.” That’s your choice. Or hell, you could conclude Billy wanted Apollo dead, if that was how you saw it. I wouldn’t necessarily share that perspective, but it’s not like I’m the belief-police here. Even if you don’t embrace the worst possible interpretation, the facts really do make Billy Mitchell look like an uncaring asshole, so I don’t see why a listing of facts should go out of its way to avoid portraying him as one.

At the time, what stuck with people the most wasn’t even Karl’s remarks themselves. It was Billy’s response to a previous report that Apollo had died:

This is what Karl meant when he said Billy “expressed joy at the thought” of Apollo being dead. Note that these messages, which Karl correctly identified as “earlier”, were sent at a time when it was not known whether the reports of Apollo’s death were true, or how Apollo may have died. So, imagine you and a friend hearing that someone may have died, and then your friend immediately starts saying “Good, fuck him. Sucks that I’ll have to pretend I didn’t want him dead.” Man, I ain’t gonna judge in the abstract, but the person being referenced would have to be one awful son of a bitch for you to not recoil in horror at your friend. And at the time, Apollo’s only real “crimes” were reporting on Billy Mitchell and Todd Rogers, being too into Internet drama, and accusing GDQ of being a scam. Oh, and he kinda showed up Billy in person at an event. Big fucking whoop.

Karl simply spelled out the known facts (as they were believed), and let you come to your own conclusion. Of course, you should fairly ask whether this is significantly altered by the fact Apollo is now known not to have paid Billy money. However, I don’t think this really alters the underlying calculus. It may have, if not for Billy’s texts, which themselves speak volumes. Sure, there may not have been “debt” exactly, but it was still a significant financial hit for Apollo to remove so many lucrative videos and turn their ownership over to Billy Mitchell, and to do it in such a public and degrading fashion. And as has been testified, YouTube was Apollo’s only source of income.

However, even that analysis misses how the question is being framed. Everyone makes mistakes, and you are (ostensibly) allowed to make understandable mistakes, especially when reporting on public figures. I’m sure Billy Mitchell would love for you to focus on Karl’s mistake, and analyze it, and rage over it, so you won’t focus on how Billy deliberately spins these outrageous falsehoods over which he can then feign outrage and claim victimhood.

But you shouldn’t just accept my framing, here, in 2025. I would ask that you go ahead and check out how people reacted to this passage at the time it was first published:

https://old.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/nlf6mi/karl_jobst_the_biggest_conmen_in_video_gaming

Most of the responses were before the video was edited in early June. You see a lot of fun poked at “Todd Togers”, and general non-Apollo-related irritation at Billy and Guinness. But not a lot of shock or outrage at Karl for “blaming a suicide” or “accusing murder” or whatever.

Well, you may ask, maybe the real offending stuff was deleted by moderators?

https://undelete.pullpush.io/r/speedrun/comments/nlf6mi/karl_jobst_the_biggest_conmen_in_video_gaming

I mean, we don’t have all the deleted material available. Sadly, Internet Archive doesn’t seem to have ever captured the replies, and my own old screencapture on file has nothing relevant. But there’s certainly not a huge groundswell of “How fucking dare Karl Jobst recklessly blame Billy Mitchell” or “C’mon, blaming people for suicide under any circumstance is over the line”. And I don’t think messages merely inquiring about whether Karl had crossed the line would have merited removal.

You can also search Twitter for the span of May 26th through June 2nd, 2021 for the words “Billy Mitchell” or “Karl Jobst” or “Apollo Legend”. I’m not gonna put anybody on blast here, but you’re going to see jokes, and outrage specifically directed at Billy’s texts, but you will find a distinct lack of “How dare Karl Jobst blame Billy Mitchell for Apollo’s suicide, that’s not cool” takes.

That narrative was introduced with Billy’s response video.

Let’s review what Billy said about Karl, one more time:

May 26th, Jobst released a video downright loaded with false, defamatory statements. The most heinous accusation related to Apollo’s passing. In the video Jobst outright states that I drove Apollo to suicide. In his words, he may as well have just said “murder”.

And this:

The real reason why Jobst fabricated this story, to blame me for Apollo’s suicide, is because he wanted to rile up his viewers’ emotions. The reality is that Jobst recklessly talked about an agreement that he wasn’t privy to, and nothing he said was true. It was very premeditated, and it was very calculated.

That was where Billy planted the idea that Karl accused Billy of directly hounding Apollo to suicide. And that was where Billy planted the idea Karl said Billy was basically guilty of “murder”, which he did not. And Billy also planted the idea that this was all “premeditated” and “very calculated”, as if Billy would have any idea based on the few videos Karl had done of Billy at that time.

You may think you see what I’m getting at, but I’m going to take it a step further. I, personally, believe Billy Mitchell defamed Karl Jobst through this unfair characterization of his words. Granted, “defamed” here is a loaded legal word. This may not have risen to the level where Karl could have secured a defamation judgment against Billy in a court of law. But to me, it certainly rises to the common meaning of the term.

And hey, look where we are now. Everyone’s angry at Karl based on, among other things I’ve already addressed, outrage at learning that Karl supposedly blamed Billy for Apollo’s death. So… I guess defamation works?

That’s a snippet from Judge Barlow’s written ruling against Karl. (Believe me, I’m going to go through that entire thing in detail soon.) I get that this situation is a bit tricky, because there’s a level of abstraction. You may not see yourself as accepting Billy’s framing, because you’re just accepting the judge’s framing, and the judge is supposed to be a neutral arbiter.

But guess whose framing the judge was choosing to embrace and amplify? In fact, why was the judge opining on this particular matter at all? It’s because this claim was brought to grown-up court by Billy Mitchell – the guy who as a practice throws around potentially life-altering lawsuits over valid criticism. Meanwhile, Karl Jobst prefers to address lies by responsibly exposing them to the public.

The reason there was no outrage against Karl at the time the words were published was because his words made sense. Billy really did hound Apollo Legend. Hell, in his original pro se complaint against Apollo, he claimed to have hired a private investigator to track down Apollo’s legal name:

And there really was a chain of events which, it would certainly seem, contributed at least in part to Apollo’s choice to end his own life. Furthermore, there really was no reason to give Billy Mitchell the benefit of the doubt that this was unintended. That doesn’t mean I blame Billy for Apollo’s death. As I’ve said many times, I genuinely do not blame Billy for that, for a few reasons. Apollo made many awful choices in life, putting himself into a situation where he believed suicide was his only way out. But while Apollo is the only one responsible for his actions, that doesn’t exactly mean Billy helped.

And you know what? You don’t have to accept Barlow’s shitty ass opinion otherwise. And you certainly don’t have to accept Billy Mitchell’s framing, either. I get that the titular question of this piece is about Karl and not Billy, but – and I cannot stress this enough – that’s part of how framing works. Billy Mitchell gets to tell blatant, demonstrable lies, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, and yet he wants you to turn your scrutiny onto whether Karl Jobst was sufficiently transparent to you in his coverage of those lies. And of course, it’s the Internet, so you have people pushing trash takes knowing that they’re trash takes because they enjoy trying to trigger and misdirect reasonable people. Meanwhile, in order to responsibly put together this write-up, I had to rewatch every single Karl video on Billy (on 2x speed), just to make sure I didn’t miss anything. This is what they mean when they say a lie travels around the world before the truth puts on its shoes.

This is also part of how Billy Mitchell manipulates people. In his California lawsuit against Twin Galaxies, he told so many blatant falsehoods in sworn testimony. And yet, he and his lawyers were able to bamboozle Judge Wendy Chang into being super-offended at the Mighty Mister Tash (TG’s attorney) for pursuing Billy’s friends who were blatantly secreting away key evidence. Meanwhile, I still to this day encounter well-intentioned people who think Billy “won” that case because TG’s attorney “screwed up” and “harassed witnesses”.

I feel like I’ve earned the right to say, even if you disagree with me, I’m at least trying to convey the truth to you. I want you to know the facts, so you can form your own opinions, but I offer my opinions as well, especially when I think proper context is important. I also think it’s fair to say, Billy Mitchell has earned no such deference. This isn’t to say that Billy literally never says anything that turns out to be true. (I have acknowledged occasions where he has.) I would even go so far as to suggest it’s not impossible for him to give a set of facts the proper framing it deserves, however incidental such occasions may be. It’s more that Billy Mitchell doesn’t deserve any assumption of good faith here.

If you want to casually follow stories like this, that’s totally okay. Believe me, I understand. I live in the same universe. I’m vaguely aware that Tommy Tallarico scammed a bunch of people, and that some people cheated at Minecraft speedruns, and that Trackmania cheater Riolu is up to bizarre stuff. Even though the topics do interest me, I do have a life beyond this, and I spend so much time and energy staying on top of the particular Billy Mitchell topics, so unfortunately that’s kind of the extent of the attention I can give those other subjects of interest.

But I would suggest, as a mental safeguard, you should be raising your mental red flags when you start believing the thing the known lying lie-lie-liar who lies all the time tells you. And I would extend that to things you suspect he would tell you, because again, you don’t necessarily know where your source is getting their information and framing from. This isn’t to say you can’t ultimately conclude such claims are true. But your default vantage should probably be that a new claim boosting Billy at least could be another lie. I’m sure Billy Mitchell is laughing his arse off right now at how people are raging at the guy he wanted to take down, calling him a “scammer”, and being freshly outraged at his words about Apollo. But even if you don’t wish to reevaluate this case, I would ask that you consider what I’ve said here, because it would help you resist being manipulated in the future.

So to circle back to the main question of the day: Did Karl Jobst lie about the Billy Mitchell lawsuit? In other words, were people misled into thinking this lawsuit was about cheating, instead of some other thing?

Well, we are talking about framing, right?

So what do you think?

Was this about cheating allegations?

And how exactly has the question been framed?

I’ll tell you what I think:

I believe, below the surface, Billy Mitchell’s lawsuit against Karl Jobst was indeed about cheating allegations all along. What I mean is, I believe Karl’s reporting on Billy’s cheating was Billy’s true motivating factor in seeing this lawsuit through. Obviously, I can’t prove it as fact, so I have to couch it as a belief, but I have good reason for seeing it that way. Billy literally did send three Concerns Notices to Karl strictly over cheating allegations. Moreover, if Billy was so concerned about any negative imputations – imputations based as much on Billy’s own texts as they were any inaccurate detail about Apollo’s settlement – he would not have used his platform to amplify those imputations in the way that he did. I believe that was done to fan the flames, so to speak, to make his planned lawsuit more viable. (As an aside, the fact everyone seemed to have forgotten what the lawsuit was about demonstrates Billy was never actually “defamed” by Karl’s video in any legally meaningful sense.) I also don’t believe Billy would’ve gone out and sued some no-name knucklehead like “Maris Memes” (if you know, you know), even if Maris had said those exact same words. I believe Billy hated Karl for using his large platform to report on the cheating, and for not backing down to his legal threat. And I believe the Australia lawsuit was Billy’s attempt to take a pound of flesh, both to punish Karl, and as a warning to others, dissuading further criticism. And, unfortunately, Billy successfully hoodwinked an Australian court into accepting his framing, and believing his claims and his fraudulent testimony.

The point being, if you believed Billy was suing Karl over cheating allegations, I don’t believe that was fundamentally incorrect, even if it may not have been correct in the way you thought it was. Truly, that may be the real reason so many casual viewers thought this legal battle was about “cheating”. Karl continued reporting on Billy’s cheating, his lies, and his fraudulent testimony, and no matter how Billy tries to misframe it, that is indeed what Billy Mitchell’s lawsuits are about. When you donated to Karl’s defense fund, you were indeed doing so in support of his coverage of Billy’s cheating, because no matter what Mr. Lies-All-the-Time tells you, that is what this situation was always about.

Anyway, thank you all for reading as usual. I definitely have a lot more to say about this Australia judgment, but I wanted to get this out ASAP. We’ll see you all back here again very soon.