Karl versus Billy: Day 4/5

by ersatz_cats

Okay, so just so everyone’s aware, this current leg of the trial is done, it’s finito, it’s in the can. It’ll pick up again next month. So my written notes I have now are all I’ll be posting until then. As I write this, it looks to be this post today, covering the rest of Day 4 and part of Day 5, and then after some appropriately leisurely activities, I sit down again on Saturday night (local time) to pound out the rest.

NOTE: At present, this post only gets through part of Day 4. I wanted to get what I had up before visiting with friends today. This post will be appended with more material from Day 4 and Day 5 later.

Check out the previous entries in this saga:

https://perfectpacman.com/2024/09/15/karl-day-0/

https://perfectpacman.com/2024/09/16/karl-day-1/

https://perfectpacman.com/2024/09/17/karl-day-2/

https://perfectpacman.com/2024/09/18/karl-day-3/

https://perfectpacman.com/2024/09/19/karl-day-3-4/

Of course, the usual caveats: Unlike my usual writing, this’ll be quick and raw. I am NOT going to reintroduce stuff from my previous “Karl vs Billy” posts, linked above, so I will assume you’ve read them. As a reminder though, “BB” refers to “Billy’s barrister”, and “KB” refers to “Karl’s barrister”. I’m normally very careful with quotes to make sure they’re accurate, but I can usually relisten to media to confirm. Since these are all one-and-done, there’ll be plenty of times where I capture what I think is the essence of what was said. “Anything in regular quotes should be considered word-for-word.” [“Anything with brackets means ‘Not word-for-word, but conveys the meaning of what was said.”] (And even then, I’m human and can make mistakes.) Also, I’m just reporting what was said, without additional fact-checking; nothing should necessarily be taken as fact just because someone said it here.

Oh! Before I continue, I should talk a little bit about visualizations. Visualizations are important for storytelling, however, photographs are forbidden in the courtroom – that’s why courtroom sketch artistry is a thing. I decided not to seriously try my hand at that, lol, although I did scribble this amateurish drawing of the courtroom into my first day’s notes:

To that point, I found this online photo that looks very similar to the courtroom from these proceedings, although the audience aisle is a little more toward the center, and those big box things in the left foreground weren’t there:

I think I didn’t do too bad, right? Oh, and those are those windows I was talking about. Anyway, it turns out I wasn’t the only doodler in the courtroom. To the question of Billy Junior’s new appearance, I was sent this sketch by one of the later-week regulars:

LITTLE BILLY

We last left off with Billy Junior still under cross-examination by Karl’s Barrister, KB. Junior recalled being in the car when he heard of the Apollo suicide note video. He attempted to call Apollo through Discord, which is preserved since Discord messages do not disappear. KB called for this Discord exchange, which was posted to the courtroom screens. I believe this was the first time I had seen this exchange. The only items I was able to scrawl down while the message was displayed were one from Junior:

When do you start releasing your statements?

And a subsequent one from Apollo:

Thanks, I just posted the message to the community tab of my channel.

The next “message” was the note of a missed call, on the day of Apollo’s death.

KB then asked Junior “Do you agree that your father had a reputation for suing people?” Junior struggled to answer, before saying “To an extent, yes.” KB asked Junior about his father’s pastor, to which Junior said he was not home for that.

The judge noted it was approaching 11am, which was said to be Preston Burt’s availability. But plaintiff’s counsel clarified that Preston can testify any time after 11. Junior’s cross was allowed to continue.

KB noted that Junior had testified that, before he uploaded Billy’s response video, he brough up Jobst’s video again and searched through to see if the offending words were still there, or to check if an edit had been made. KB asked [“Why would you think it would?”] Junior said they’d had a call with someone who relayed to Karl that the allegations was untrue.

KB asked “So if the words were gone, you would not have followed through with the response video?”

Junior said that it would have made no difference.

KB asked why Junior kept the video up, to which Junior said it shows the claim is false.

KB asked if Junior had seen Karl’s apology video. Junior said, yes, they learned about it from their father’s old solicitor, and that he went to it recently just to screenshot it. KB asked how many views it had, drawing an objection from BB that there’s no pleading as to the number of views, and that defense counsel was trying to enter evidence not in the pleading. The judge chooses to allow the question. However, BB requested a break to receive instruction, to which KB agreed.

The audience had drawn some more regulars around this time. Meanwhile Billy, who had been so eager to schmooze earlier in the week, seemed far less social today. (Of course, I would attribute his lack of sociability to his own actions, and the consequences thereof.) Most of the
other regulars kept their space from Billy. However, one decided to get a bit cheeky with Billy. As we re-entered court, he said “Teenagers are always on their phones. You should know better, Billy.”

When we reconvened at 11:18, Karl was missing from the courtroom for the first time these proceedings, but he did emerge with his solicitor moments later. In Karl’s absence, KB continued by showing Junior six documents. They involved screen captures of YouTube analytics pages. (I believe these related to Billy’s response video, but somehow I failed to actually write that in my scribbled notes.) These pages had statistics broken down by major cities. KB asked if spikes up meant likes and spikes down meant dislikes, to which Junior said he wasn’t sure. It shows engagement over time, with views and “impressions”, which is the number of times a video shows up people’s recommendations. KB noted there seemed to be more views than in Germany or Sweden.

KB asked Junior to confirm that he and his father have left the response video up. Junior confirmed they have.

KB asked Junior to confirm they have not made a new video including Karl’s “apology”. Junior confirms that is correct.

KB asked Junior to confirm they did not add a link to Karl’s “apology” if their response video. Junior confirms that is correct.

KB asked whey they haven’t. Junior said [“Because I don’t believe that apology is an apology, actually.”]

KB posits that what’s concerning is that, Billy’s claiming Karl’s original video calls him a murderer, but he fails to append his media with Karl’s clarification that he does not think Billy is a murderer.

KB asked, if that inference was so important, then why not add a link to that apology video?

Junior reiterated that he didn’t think that apology was an apology.

KB asked Junior again to recall his visit to the John Weeks auction. Junior said they happened to be in Los Angeles for something else. Junior noted media surrounding the event, including from the Palm Springs Desert Sun. At this point, BB objected to the document’s inclusion except as “a credit”, to which KB clarified that it is indeed just “a credit”. (And thank you to the folks in a previous post’s replies who clarified that “credit” here is basically shorthand for “credibility”, and thus “a credit” would be an item that speaks to a witness’s credibility. It is my understanding that, while most evidence has to be revealed and lodged with the court beforehand, the exception is material being used to call a witness’s credibility into question, because of those had to all be disclosed, the witness would know how to tailor their answers accordingly.)

Going back to Billy’s response video, Junior recalled that prior to its publication, he’d had a conversation with someone considered credible to both parties, named Keemstar, adding that Keemstar had told Junior he would reach out to Jobst regarding Billy’s concerns.

When asked about Billy’s socials, Junior said he doesn’t have much to do with Billy’s Instagram, adding that his mother handles probably 95% of that. KB asked about a post relating to Billy’s appearance at a vintage collectibles show, but Junior said he doesn’t know about that, and was not the one to post it to Instagram. Regarding an arcade grand opening in New Jersey, Junior did not know about it, and did not attend with his father. Same with Free Play Florida in 2021. Junior also did not attend the Music City Multi Con, but did attend a 2022 speech his father made at Bloomington, Illinois. KB was about to ask a question that related to Billy’s finances, but then recalled Junior said he didn’t know about that. Junior also didn’t recall Billy doing an interview with the podcast “Pardon My Take.”

KB then said he had no further questions.

A quick side note. In case I didn’t make it clear, both sides have a barrister, who is allowed to address the court, and they also have solicitor(s) wearing normal dress clothing, with one typically sitting up at the lawyers bench alongside the barrister. As Billy’s barrister was about to begin second direct questioning (or whatever they call it here), Billy tried to get the attention of his solicitor by calling him “Francis”. I suppose that would make him the “Francis Henry Joseph” whose affidavit was noted in Day 2. Do his friends at least get to call him Frankie?

BB’s second direct was quick. BB asked about Junior’s work as a law clerk for Manning & Kass. Junior said he helped with researching and compiling evidence. BB asked how much he was paid for this work, to which Junior said he was paid “$359 a year” noting that it was very low. Judge joked that that’s like $1 an hour.

With that, Junior was excused as a witness, and was allowed to watch the remaining proceedings with the rest of us clowns in the peanut gallery.

PRESSING BURT

Hey, c’mon, I think that headline’s sweet.

The next person to be “affirmed” (sworn in) was Preston Burt, co-founder of Southern Fried Gaming Expo. He seemed to be filming from a narrow book closet. Preston testified about knowing Billy from King of Kong, who organizers reached out to to be a speaker and special guest for the first SFGE, which Junior attended as well. This early planning for the first event was done over a year in advance. They were interested, but they also wanted to know more and to meet Billy in person. Preston testified that, the summer before the event, one of the organizers met Billy at one his son’s football camps in Atlanta. BB clarified for the record that, in this case, “summer” meant June.

Both Preston and his colleague felt like it was a good opportunity. They asked Billy to sign U.S> flag ties as giveaways. BB asked in what way Billy was used to promote the event. It included a photo on the website, scheduled appearances at the event, and a meet-and-greet. Billy attended the entirety of each day. Burt recalled the event was a huge success, exceeding their attendance expectations. Their plans for the following year included Billy giving a talk, signing autographs, sitting on a panel session, and participating in a “Battle Billy Mitchell” Pac-Man event. Preston said Billy was very accessible, that Billy told him [“Just let me know how you need me, I’m here to work.”] Preston observed attendees interacting with Billy. They all had a great time, took pictures, joked around. They seemed to be excited to see him. Billy seemed very gregarious, very funny. He would always play the part people wanted, taking photographs with either an angry face or smiling. Preston noted most people were familiar with Billy through King of Kong, which showed him as a bad guy, but they wanted that bad guy persona for pictures.

Preston said that after the first event in 2014, they asked him back the next year 2015, as well as for 2017 and 2018, and for their online event in 2020. Preston felt that it was good to focus on other guests as well, and that if they had Billy every year, it would reach saturation, and his impact would grow stale, adding that each year away would add appeal to attendees.

Preston recalled hearing about the Twin Galaxies dispute on Internet forums. BB asked [“Did that affect how you wanted him for future events?”] Preston answered “Not particularly, no.” BB asked Preston if he’d observed Billy’s interactions since that dispute, to which Preston said they’re still positive. Judge then interjected, noting that this was a misleading question, given that Billy did not attend in 2019, and the 2020 event was digital.

BB then asked Preston about Billy’s “Road to Redemption” panel in 2018. And it was at this moment that the unthinkable happened…

My pen insta-died!! I came with two old pens in my pocket, and two new pens I bought off the shelf just before traveling. One of the new ones had started to run dry earlier, but I just assumed that one pen was faulty, because my pocket pens of the same style seemed to last forever. But this second pen gave me no grace period at all. It was done. Unfortunately, in shuffling my inksticks around, I didn’t capture the answer Preston gave regarding the Road to Redemption, or whatever question Judge (denoted by circle-J) asked, though it looks like he was asking about the year. Regardless, through my other fading pen, I continued.

Preston later noted that, in 2020, they lost considerable revenue due to COVID lockdown, electing to take money where they could, which included expansion into other options.

BB asked Preston if they would invite Billy back.

Preston said [“Yes, we have no qualms about it. We’re discussing it for June 2025.”]

BB asked if they would recommend Billy as a guest to other expos.

Preston said [“We would and we have. Billy’s always there to work, and he makes the event a better experience.”]

[“No further questions.”]

In cross-examination, KB asked Preston to confirm various years of Billy’s attendance. Preston made a verbal reference to his “notes”, prompting KB to ask Preston to confirm that he was not actively using these external notes to assist his current testimony.

KB then asked Preston to authenticate an appearance on the “Game Room Junkies” podcast, where he talks about SFGE having a pre-existing contract with Billy for 2018. When asked if SFGE did indeed have a pre-existing contract with Billy, Preston confirmed that was the case. However, when asked if Preston had such a contract and cancelled, Preston said that did not happen. KB then asked again if Preston would bring Billy back, and Preston reiterated that he would have no qualms about having Billy back again.

BB noted the next witness could be appearing by telephone, noting that the pace of the trial has started to quicken. Judge said they were about a day behind the schedule, but that they were starting to catch up. At first, it sounded like Triforce would be their next witness, however, and an adjournment that seemed to take a while, we were greeted by testimony from another Billy pal.

STEVE NOTHINGBERGER

The next witness was announced as being a local fellow by the name Steve Grunberger. One of our regulars, a local, I saw his eyes grow wide, as he whispered “THIS GUY!?!?” I remarked, quietly in court, “Oh, you know him?” He gave me that look as if it were a long story, to which I volunteered that I’ve heard reports online and in person that he scams people with fraudulent sales. (I was also told Grunny is more appreciated in the U.S. because he brown-noses people like Billy and Walter Day) This courtroom regular nodded to me and whispered “Here in Australia, we refer to him as ‘The Grunburglar’.”

Before we get to Steve’s actual testimony, note that from a legal perspective, it seems the purpose of his appearance was to establish viewership in Queensland. In other words, in an Australian court, it’s not enough to say people somewhere else in the world may have gotten a bad impression of the video from Billy, they have to say that someone local did as well.

Grunberger, who seemed to be testifying from an empty white house, said he’s known Billy a long time, that he remembers when Billy was on “the cover” of Time Magazine (which, for the record, did not happen), and that he eventually began attending expos with Billy, including at the Australian Kong Off. BB asked his observations of people’s interactions with Billy. Grunny said Billy shakes everyone’s hands, and is always happy to meet people.

BB asked Grunberger about the Karl Jobst video. Grunny said he had to watch it after Billy sent him a link to it over SMS. Steve then authenticated the text message in question, dated May 31st. He watched it at home, in Gold Coast, Queensland. Steve recalled the video discussed Apollo Legend’s suicide, and linked it to Billy.

With BB’s short question list exhausted, Grunberger was quickly off to cross-examination. KB asked Steve to repeat again that he’d seen video. Steve said he did watch the whole thing, but it was a while ago and he couldn’t remember too much about it besides the main part with Apollo. Steve didn’t recall seeing the apology video, but he did see a video put up by Billy to address it, which was shared around the gaming community.

Steve confirmed that he likes Billy, that he hung out with Billy’s wife and son, as well as mutual friends like Eric Tessler, at events in the U.S. and in Australia, including the last two Kong Offs in Banning, California, and at the Australian Kong Off in Brisbane, and at a wedding.

KB asked Steve if he remembered Karl calling Billy a cheater in his video. Steve said he did.

KB asked Steve if this gave him a bad impression of Billy

Steve said [“No, in my opinion, you have to prove yourself. Anyone could call anyone a cheater.”]

KB asked [“So, if you see something online, you won’t believe it until you see proof?”]

Grunberger said “Correct.”

KB asked [“That goes for if someone says someone else is a murderer, right?”]

Grunberger agreed.

KB said he had no further questions.

Following Grunberger’s testimony, as I sat within earshot of Billy, I could hear him mutter to himself “That was stupid”.

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Hey folks, ersatz here. I’m finally catching up on some sleep! It’s nice not having to run out to the courthouse first thing in the morning, but I do have plans to meet up with some locals today. Even though I think I have a good cutoff point later, I wanted to get what I have up before I head out. My plan is to append this post with the rest of Day 4 and a little of Day 5 later, and then add another post rounding out Day 5. And I’ll announce on Twitter when both of those have arrived. Until then, thanks for reading!